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amother
Clear
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 Yesterday at 2:30 pm
Just from the other side (this is not in response to OP, it's in response to some other posters):
BH BH my husband is in kollel right now. He understands that it is his responsibility to support me and our chikdren and if and when the need arises, he will go to work, no questions asked.
But right now there is no need. He is the youngest in his family, and all of his siblings are self supported (by choice-- because the kollel lifestyle was not something that any of them wanted to choose, which is great that they did what was right for them)
Baruch Hashem my in laws are very very well off. I work 6 hours a day and have flexibility to take care of our kids, but I consider us to be "supported" by my in laws-- I cover the rent with my salary and they cover everything else.
If you were to see us, you might think we look like an "entitled" kollel family. We don't wear hand me downs, though I shop only sales and aliexpress. We go out to eat occasionally. Our stroller is considered "nice".
But before you judge, realize that you just see the externals-- what you don't see is my incredibly generous and proud in laws in the background.
When my father in law saw how little we were spending during our first year married, my father in law called my husband aside and asked him to please "treat me" more. He told him to eat out a bit more often and to tell me that I should feel comfortable buying new clothes if I needed.
And then he started transferring crazy ammounts of money to our bank account each month so that we should feel like we can live "comfortably" (to me its cushy, but different standards.
I DEFINITELY don't spend lots every month, but from the outside it's clear that we are not penny pinching at all, and some might say it seems like we are entitled bc my husband is learning but we're not poor.
My father in law just called us to let us know that in the next calendar year (2025) he wants to buy us an apartment. I am so incredibly grateful and realize that this is a luxury and huge gift, and not at all a given. But I also worry. I worry what our friends will think, as noone in our stage of life owns their apartment in my community. I worry about the message that it will give my kids, since knowing my father in law, the apartment that he buys will be nothing short of gorgeous. I worry about upping the standards in my community. But the gift will be given on his terms, which means he'll need to approve the apartment and it will have to be very nice.
Yet I don't want people to look at us and say that we are not a "real" kollel couple.
My husband learns long hours and is incredibly serious about his learning.
Is being a "real" kollel couple defined as being poor?! Can we not be well off and still be serious about being a kollel family?! Asking seriously because all the judgement seriously bothers me-- we are so fortunate to be receiving support that is given so willingly. Should we turn it down because we "have to" be "poor" to be "real kollel"?
Everyone please just mind your own business and stop judging everyone else who you see.
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amother
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Yesterday at 2:34 pm
| amother Clear wrote: | Just from the other side (this is not in response to OP, it's in response to some other posters):
BH BH my husband is in kollel right now. He understands that it is his responsibility to support me and our chikdren and if and when the need arises, he will go to work, no questions asked.
But right now there is no need. He is the youngest in his family, and all of his siblings are self supported (by choice-- because the kollel lifestyle was not something that any of them wanted to choose, which is great that they did what was right for them)
Baruch Hashem my in laws are very very well off. I work 6 hours a day and have flexibility to take care of our kids, but I consider us to be "supported" by my in laws-- I cover the rent with my salary and they cover everything else.
If you were to see us, you might think we look like an "entitled" kollel family. We don't wear hand me downs, though I shop only sales and aliexpress. We go out to eat occasionally. Our stroller is considered "nice".
But before you judge, realize that you just see the externals-- what you don't see is my incredibly generous and proud in laws in the background.
When my father in law saw how little we were spending during our first year married, my father in law called my husband aside and asked him to please "treat me" more. He told him to eat out a bit more often and to tell me that I should feel comfortable buying new clothes if I needed.
And then he started transferring crazy ammounts of money to our bank account each month so that we should feel like we can live "comfortably" (to me its cushy, but different standards.
I DEFINITELY don't spend lots every month, but from the outside it's clear that we are not penny pinching at all, and some might say it seems like we are entitled bc my husband is learning but we're not poor.
My father in law just called us to let us know that in the next calendar year (2025) he wants to buy us an apartment. I am so incredibly grateful and realize that this is a luxury and huge gift, and not at all a given. But I also worry. I worry what our friends will think, as noone in our stage of life owns their apartment in my community. I worry about the message that it will give my kids, since knowing my father in law, the apartment that he buys will be nothing short of gorgeous. I worry about upping the standards in my community. But the gift will be given on his terms, which means he'll need to approve the apartment and it will have to be very nice.
Yet I don't want people to look at us and say that we are not a "real" kollel couple.
My husband learns long hours and is incredibly serious about his learning.
Is being a "real" kollel couple defined as being poor?! Can we not be well off and still be serious about being a kollel family?! Asking seriously because all the judgement seriously bothers me-- we are so fortunate to be receiving support that is given so willingly. Should we turn it down because we "have to" be "poor" to be "real kollel"?
Everyone please just mind your own business and stop judging everyone else who you see. |
No im really happy for you.
I’m not talking about this
I’m talking about where ok the parents can support but doesn’t mean they need to give over their life savings so the couple can buy a house. And it doesn’t mean the kids should feel entitled to everything the other couples have because their parents are wealthy and are able to help out more.
And if your parents are able to there’s no reason you shouldn’t enjoy it.
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amother
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Yesterday at 2:37 pm
| amother Scarlet wrote: | That is very surprising. The importance is for the boy to be machshiv torah and learning. Of course good torahdik boys can be working, as long as they are machshiv torah and set aside time to learn.
The kollel life is not for everyone, that doesn't mean they aren't good boys. |
They always said: good boys don't work. If you go on a date with a boy who works.. there's sth wrong there.
Most of us married learners even though some of the girls had only been frum for a year or 2. It's ridiculous. We believed them and we didn't know better. Because we didn't know any frum man who worked besides being a rabbi.
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amother
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Yesterday at 2:40 pm
Maybe it’s just something I see in the circles I’m in. I don’t know.
I’m really not trying to judge but when I see this family and other people I know where the wife is incredibly overwhelmed, trying to juggle everything while their husband wants to stay in learning it makes me mad. When they feel entitled to get get get it rush me the wrong way. I know everyone’s not like this, this is just what I see around me and I don’t think I’m the only one. I’m not saying you have to be poor just cuz ur kollel but it’s a different thing to expect and milk out of other ppl especially when they’re not super wealthy
Yeah I should mind my own business, I’m just venting.
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amother
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Yesterday at 2:41 pm
| amother Scarlet wrote: | | I don't think sahm's are entitled either. Privileged, yes. |
It's the same as a Kollel family, they are privileged to be in Kollel if they are happy to live where it works for their budget and she can manage without extra house help if they can't afford it etc.
They are entitled like the Kollel family OP knows if they expect their husband to bring in all the money and have a house in prime location just as fancy as their neighbours have daily help etc and complain if their husband says no, Or if they are sahm and take from the community whilst complaining they can't live like yenta but still buy everything matching each season regardless of the debts etc
You get the jist.
It all has nothing to do with the work of the husband or wife it's the way they live and expect from others to give and provide for them.
a Kollel family and a sahm family both live according to their budgets are privileged
A Kollel family and a sahm family who rely and demand from others are entitled.
There are both in both groups!
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amother
Lotus
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Yesterday at 2:42 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I really cannot understand why we keep pushing the kollel lifestyle
Some of the attitudes I see are plain disgusting. I have a family member who has a bunch of kids, wants to buy a house. Been getting support from parents since they got married.
But just a house isn’t good enough. Husband wants only a certain area near yeshiva that they can’t afford. Not only that, it’s not enough to have a regular house. It has to be renovated- new bathrooms and kitchen. Otherwise it’s not livable. And they’re expecting the parents to just pay up
Hello?! Plenty of working families can’t buy houses, let alone renovate them. If you want to live a high life get up and work instead of shnorring from others.
I don’t get why kollel is put on such a pedestal. I don’t think there’s anything great about it unless parents are billionaires or husband has a business he works on on the side or whatever.
Wives are getting burnt out, handling working, kids, dinner, cleaning house, laundry. When the kids grow up who’s paying for their wedding? Yeshiva?
I don’t know I guess I’m just annoyed. I made sure to marry a working boy to avoid all this but when this family member says wow you guys are earning x amount and she thinks it’s so much, in my head I’m like that includes rent which u dont pay. And clothing for me and baby because we dont get gift cards.
Besides the fact that a man needs to be responsible and take care of his wife and step up if she’s overwhelmed, don’t send her to work just so u can sit and learn |
Is it so surprising that some of these men become entitled when they are told that what they do is more important than anything else and they deserve money and support and kavod? And it’s a lot easier to spend other people’s money.
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meyerlemon44
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Yesterday at 2:50 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I really cannot understand why we keep pushing the kollel lifestyle
Some of the attitudes I see are plain disgusting. I have a family member who has a bunch of kids, wants to buy a house. Been getting support from parents since they got married.
But just a house isn’t good enough. Husband wants only a certain area near yeshiva that they can’t afford. Not only that, it’s not enough to have a regular house. It has to be renovated- new bathrooms and kitchen. Otherwise it’s not livable. And they’re expecting the parents to just pay up
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You see this with all kinds of people who get free money. When you don't work for what you have, you don't value it like someone who earned what they got by working hard.
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amother
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Yesterday at 2:52 pm
| amother Clear wrote: | Just from the other side (this is not in response to OP, it's in response to some other posters):
BH BH my husband is in kollel right now. He understands that it is his responsibility to support me and our chikdren and if and when the need arises, he will go to work, no questions asked.
But right now there is no need. He is the youngest in his family, and all of his siblings are self supported (by choice-- because the kollel lifestyle was not something that any of them wanted to choose, which is great that they did what was right for them)
Baruch Hashem my in laws are very very well off. I work 6 hours a day and have flexibility to take care of our kids, but I consider us to be "supported" by my in laws-- I cover the rent with my salary and they cover everything else.
If you were to see us, you might think we look like an "entitled" kollel family. We don't wear hand me downs, though I shop only sales and aliexpress. We go out to eat occasionally. Our stroller is considered "nice".
But before you judge, realize that you just see the externals-- what you don't see is my incredibly generous and proud in laws in the background.
When my father in law saw how little we were spending during our first year married, my father in law called my husband aside and asked him to please "treat me" more. He told him to eat out a bit more often and to tell me that I should feel comfortable buying new clothes if I needed.
And then he started transferring crazy ammounts of money to our bank account each month so that we should feel like we can live "comfortably" (to me its cushy, but different standards.
I DEFINITELY don't spend lots every month, but from the outside it's clear that we are not penny pinching at all, and some might say it seems like we are entitled bc my husband is learning but we're not poor.
My father in law just called us to let us know that in the next calendar year (2025) he wants to buy us an apartment. I am so incredibly grateful and realize that this is a luxury and huge gift, and not at all a given. But I also worry. I worry what our friends will think, as noone in our stage of life owns their apartment in my community. I worry about the message that it will give my kids, since knowing my father in law, the apartment that he buys will be nothing short of gorgeous. I worry about upping the standards in my community. But the gift will be given on his terms, which means he'll need to approve the apartment and it will have to be very nice.
Yet I don't want people to look at us and say that we are not a "real" kollel couple.
My husband learns long hours and is incredibly serious about his learning.
Is being a "real" kollel couple defined as being poor?! Can we not be well off and still be serious about being a kollel family?! Asking seriously because all the judgement seriously bothers me-- we are so fortunate to be receiving support that is given so willingly. Should we turn it down because we "have to" be "poor" to be "real kollel"?
Everyone please just mind your own business and stop judging everyone else who you see. |
We don't say Kollel should be poor. We say as Kollel it doesn't mean we are entitled.
From the sound of it, if your in-laws would have said they have to stop supporting you wouldn't have kicked up a storm and demand they continue supporting plus buy the house you would have either gotten a job with more hours or/and your husband would get a evening job or leave Kollel if that's what is needed to continue covering your basic expenses.
We would say you are entitled if you tell your in-laws you are only accepting the apartment if they upgrade it to a house in the most expensive areas completely upto date and fully furnished....
As a Kollel couple without support I'm so happy that you are able to live a life like this. It's a true bracha and your in-laws should stay successful so they can continue supporting you comfortably. You living like this isn't taking away from the way we live. It's not like you not having it would mean that I will...
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Chayalle
↓
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Yesterday at 2:58 pm
It's interesting - I have a relative that has bashed my husband's Kollel lifestyle ever since I got married (close to 30 years ago).
DH and I were not supported. We have taken care of our own expenses, we have made it work for us. We never asked anyone for anything.
My relative used a cousin of mine as an example of a worthy lifestyle, unlike my Kollel DH. THIS guy is working to support his family. HE is a mentch.
Said cousin gets flown in to every Simcha and summer vacations at his in-laws expense. He got his rent covered when he started out working and wasn't making it yet, and his downpayment for his house. He's already making weddings by now, and guess what, his parents and in-laws are still paying.
It's only the Kollel people who get bashed. Heaven help if they make a wedding and their parents gift them some assistance (which was greatly appreciated) - it's not OK. But if someone is working, it's fine.
OP, you know a Kollel family that is acting a bit entitled? Yeah it's kind of ugly when that happens....but I'd like to show you the many other Kollel families who make it work on a simple scale.
I can also tell you about relatives who are in school, starting out working, etc.... and need their parents to pitch in. And want things on a nice scale, because "everyone has it". Of course, since they are working, or working towards working, etc...it's all okay, no one is posting about that.
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amother
Indigo
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Yesterday at 4:12 pm
| amother OP wrote: | It’s not just on one person
Most of the kollel couples I know live this way. Bash me all you want, I just dont see the true kollel couples anymore. |
If I'm understanding you correctly you seem to take issue with the supported kollel couple. There are plenty of us who work like crazy to afford to rent our tiny apartments with a bunch of kids so our husbands can learn.
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amother
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Yesterday at 4:20 pm
| amother Indigo wrote: | | If I'm understanding you correctly you seem to take issue with the supported kollel couple. There are plenty of us who work like crazy to afford to rent our tiny apartments with a bunch of kids so our husbands can learn. |
Why do you have to work like crazy? That's unfair. It's the mans role to work, Adam's curse! Do you really think it's worth your mental and physical health? Not to mention being present for your children.
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Chayalle
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Yesterday at 4:37 pm
| amother Hibiscus wrote: | | Why do you have to work like crazy? That's unfair. It's the mans role to work, Adam's curse! Do you really think it's worth your mental and physical health? Not to mention being present for your children. |
Excuse me. Plenty of working Moms are there and present for their children, and are doing fine mentally and physically. I can also tell you about my supposedly SAHM relatives who send their children out to daycare to get a break, are out doing all sorts of errands, are not any more present for their children. It's a matter of balance and priorities, and those who want to make it work.
People do what works. My great-grandmother HYD ran a general store from her home - she was an excellent business woman, and supplemented the family income way before Kollel was a concept.
It's none of your business - begging your pardon - what a family decides works for their personal lifestyle/values/finances. Your questions here and really rude and in-your-face. A little respect for someone else's choices, they don't have to match yours.
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amother
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Yesterday at 4:43 pm
| amother Hibiscus wrote: | | Why do you have to work like crazy? That's unfair. It's the mans role to work, Adam's curse! Do you really think it's worth your mental and physical health? Not to mention being present for your children. |
And this amazing women said to her husband you go learn all day and I will work like crazy to cover the bills.
Why do you care? she didnt come knocking on your door and say I told my husband to learn so know you can give us money, she took that upon herself.
you can choose if you want to give your maaser to a kollel, a kollel family, your shul or anything else you feel is right for you. why does her choice of working to let her Husband learn bother you?
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GLUE
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Yesterday at 5:11 pm
| amother Scarlet wrote: | | I don't think sahm's are entitled either. Privileged, yes. |
...and I know of a few SAHM's that became SAHM because baby sitting would eat up their whole salary plus, so they stopped working.
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amother
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Yesterday at 5:49 pm
[quote="meyerlemon44"]You see this with all kinds of people who get free money. When you don't work for what you have, you don't value it like someone who earned what they got by working hard.[/quote
I guess that’s true
Didn’t think of it from that angle. Thanks ]
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amother
Honeydew
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Yesterday at 6:07 pm
To be honest I think it's an aveira to not support your wife. If I find someone else to carry my baby for me its against halacha. But if my husband skips working it's not?
How's that make sense in your head cause In mine it's not working.
Also the guy SIGNED that hes supporting his wife it's HIS responsibility to do so.
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amother
Snow
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Yesterday at 6:26 pm
| amother Scarlet wrote: | Privileged in the same sense as anyone who is pursuing a lofty goal that they are passionate about, such as someone setting out to find a cure to a disease.
Not without hard work and sacrifice.
And it is very much giving to the klal just as a medical researcher is.
Kollel men are not "living off" of others. This is a joint passion and investement that has a positive gain for the whole family and beyond.
ETA: this is really just a tip of the iceberg, there is a lot more that I don't have time to elaborate on. |
Hmmm…there are a lot more in kollel then medical research, how many are really needed to serve the klal?
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amother
Copper
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Yesterday at 6:27 pm
I used to rant like you.
Then I realized I just know some very snobby, high maintenance, immature people who HAPPEN to also be in kollel.
Kollel is not the problem. They just happen to be this way because of their taivos and bad decision making. You wouldn’t talk the same about other people who have problems. Just daven for them. This isn’t real kollel life. Although it may seem it’s the majority of people , there are also a great amount of people truly working hard and living modestly. Just be grateful you’re not them. Nothing will ever be enough for them and they’ll always be unhappy.
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amother
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Yesterday at 6:32 pm
| GLUE wrote: | | ...and I know of a few SAHM's that became SAHM because baby sitting would eat up their whole salary plus, so they stopped working. |
👍
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