Definition of Frum. Is observant and frum the same

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Raizle ↓

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:08 pm

Spin off of another thread. Here's the conversation:

Quote:

amother Crystal wrote:

I just want to say that I know frum people who will eat raw seafood at a non kosher restaurant

Technically while at all have things we sin at, there are 3 main things that determine if someone is frum.

Keeping kosher, Shabbos and family purity.

Not that I think OP should do anything, just responding to what you wrote about frum people eating treif

amother Hawthorn wrote:

Those 3 determine if one is religious. Religious doesn't necessarily mean frum.

Raizle wrote:

Actually it determines observant.
Religious is not a word used correctly.

An observant is frum..

Would you like to elaborate on why you don't think it does?

amother Hawthorn wrote:

Observant doesn't necessarily mean frum....
Everyone has a different definition of observant. (And probably for frum as well...)
(Frum is actually a yiddish word, so it's basically irrelevant to anyone that just keeps the big 3 or isn't orthodox/observant/religious.)
But this topic doesn't really come in to the thread...)

amother Gladiolus wrote:

The word from in Yiddish actually means something very closely related to the word observant in English.
Why do you think it doesn't? Especially since it doesn't seem you have a different definition of the word

Ok thoughts everyone? I see being observant as being frum with different levels, different hashkofas etc

Sleepdeprived

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:13 pm

I think that poster got confused with religious/observant and Orthodox.
Not everyone who's religious or observant identifies as Orthodox.
Frum is another term for an Orthodox Jew.

Cheiny

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:19 pm

[quote="Raizle"]Spin off of another thread. Here's the conversation:

Quote:

Ok thoughts everyone? I see being observant as being frum with different levels, different hashkofas etc

I don’t think labels have any purpose.

↑ Raizle ↓

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:20 pm

Sleepdeprived wrote:

I think that poster got confused with religious/observant and Orthodox.
Not everyone who's religious or observant identifies as Orthodox.
Frum is another term for an Orthodox Jew.

Orthodox means observant. There are different forms of orthodoxy.

sweetpotato

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:21 pm

I think the word is used differently by different communities and in different contexts.

I’m modern orthodox and everyone I know uses the term frum to designate an observant Jewish person. Someone who at a bare minimum keeps shabbos/kashrus all the way up to ultra chassidish or yeshivish. It depends on the context.

“There were a ton of frum families at the zoo today!” (Meaning we saw a lot of visibly orthodox families at the zoo.)

“I found out the new guy in my department is actually frum.” (Could mean a man who doesn’t dress visibly Jewish is shomer shabbos/kashrus to some degree).

“I asked a frum guy to make a minyan in the airport” (means any man wearing a kippah no matter what type)

I understand other communities use the term to mean more “very religious” vs just orthodox.

↑ Raizle ↓

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:21 pm

Cheiny wrote:

I don’t think labels have any purpose.

Well they do. If someone is looking for a match and you want to help, you need to know where they hold. On a simple level frum or not frum is a starting point

↑ Raizle

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:24 pm

sweetpotato wrote:

I'm Chabad and we use the term to include all levels of orthodoxy.

If further discussion is warranted, like making a shudduch or being invited to eat over we will then determine level of frumkeit. Do they keep C"y? Will she cover her hair? Etc

synthy ↓

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:32 pm

In my Yiddish speaking community, frum is a unit of measure (for lack of better word). So while for most people the word frum = religious, you’ll hear people say “she’s frummer than her sister” to indicate that she shukels more when she davens etc. it’s usually used as an indicator for religious fervor rather than purely Halacha based.

Blessing1

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:34 pm

synthy wrote:

Like my neighbor considers herself more frum then me because she wears a covered wig...

↑ synthy

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:36 pm

Blessing1 wrote:

Like my neighbor considers herself more frum then me because she wears a covered wig...

Yeah, it doesn’t mean she’s more religious (I’m sure even she doesn’t think that way). Like, people can ask when suggesting a shidduch “does she want a very frum boy?” and if the answer is no it doesn’t she wants a secular guy, just someone who’s not super farchnukt.

Trademark

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 9:48 pm

We have been through this before on the site. The confusion is because people use it differently.

I think that generally frum is understood to mean orthodox.

But in some places it's used instead of more to the right, for a lack of a better term.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 10 2024, 11:26 pm

I grew up that frum is just the yiddish version of religious which is just another way of saying observant.
That they all man the same thing.

essie14

Yesterday at 2:45 am

Everyone uses the term differently.
I know people who span the entire spectrum and they all call themselves frum.

Person A doesn't cover her hair, wears pants, eats vegan out, uses an elevator on shabbos when on vacation. Her kitchen is kosher and she keeps shabbos at home so she calls herself frum.
Person B asks a rabbi about every aspect of her life - covers hair fully, eats CY,PY and also calls herself frum.

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