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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> Teenagers and Older children
Which child sits in the front passenger seat
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| Usually the oldest |
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42% |
[ 49 ] |
| Switch off between whoever is eligible age wise |
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53% |
[ 61 ] |
| Other (explain in comments) |
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3% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 114 |
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amother
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 Sat, Dec 07 2024, 11:50 pm
| amother Mistyrose wrote: | And did I never babysit my nieces and nephews for my older siblings when they came for Shabbos, and did I never help out a ton for all the prep that was involved when my married siblings came back for Shabbos or YT, and did I never have to help my parents a ton once the older ones got married and moved out so it all fell on me and my younger sibs since we were now the older, capable children at home?
Different stages of life, but the help required from the kids is constant, just different help at different stages. |
And at that point, you got privileges. Your older siblings were no longer around to get them.
You likely went on more and better vacations as well. You probably did not have to share all the good treats on a daily basis with a giant group of kids. You probably got your way easier, and grew up with allowances your older siblings wouldn't have dreamed of.
You didn't have to figure everything out on your own.
Did you have to help your parents and care for your younger siblings at the same time? Did your older siblings live in your house so that you had to babysit their kids as often as they babysat for you?
Just pay attention to your eldest as he/she grows, please. You will understand if you make an effort. He/she shouldn't have to suffer due to a perspective narrowed by your spot in your family of origin, or a misplaced idea of fairness.
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amother
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Sat, Dec 07 2024, 11:53 pm
| amother Mistyrose wrote: | So, no, your parents were not being fair. I already don't parent that way. I don't do things my 5 yr old won't enjoy because I have younger kids, and I don't plan to do that when my 5 yr old is older either. If I had an only girl first, I would expect help from her brothers as well, if I had a boy first, I would expect help from him, if I have two girls or two boys first they're all going to have to pitch in, and same to each following kid as they get old enough to be a contributing member of the family.
Because your parents weren't very fair to you as an eldest doesn't mean "parents aren't fair to eldests and they should be given more privileges", it's "any child a parent hands responsibility to should be given privileges along with it". I will expect children to chip in to care for their house and family according to their age, whether that's a 6 yr old helping to set the table for Shabbos or a 4 yr old helping to put all the books back on the shelf. I will not be putting more responsibility on my oldest simply because they're the oldest- they'll just reach the age of the next level of responsibility first, that's all. So I don't think my oldest should automatically be given privileges their siblings don't get, simply cuz they happened to join the family first- if they genuinely are putting more effort into the family then naturally I'll be rewarding that. And if I have an eldest who just doesn't ever want to be helpful and has to be cajoled into everything, and the middle kid is actually the one who is leaping into action when I ask them to take care of something, then that's the child who's gonna get more positive consequences, naturally. (Happens to be I can already see my oldest is a really chipping-in sort when they're in the mood, but I'm still gonna be careful not to put too much on them alone, and rather share it out amongst the kids, because I have a very strong sense of justice and fairness and would never want one kid to feel less than the other based on nothing but luck of birth order.) |
Like I said here, my children will get privileges based on the responsibility they have, not simply by dint of being born first. And I do not plan to ever place a ton more responsibility on any one child over another, they'll all have responsibilities appropriate to their age, and therefore privileges based on age. I just don't think it's healthy to always place the oldest on a pedestal that the others can never reach simply cuz they got born after the oldest.
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amother
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Sat, Dec 07 2024, 11:57 pm
| amother Mistyrose wrote: | And did I never babysit my nieces and nephews for my older siblings when they came for Shabbos, and did I never help out a ton for all the prep that was involved when my married siblings came back for Shabbos or YT, and did I never have to help my parents a ton once the older ones got married and moved out so it all fell on me and my younger sibs since we were now the older, capable children at home?
Different stages of life, but the help required from the kids is constant, just different help at different stages. |
Correct but then you got the privileges awarded of being from the younger ones. As an oldest there were many things I needed to do around the house and many things I lost out on since I was the oldest. For example I was helping serve and clear the tables from the age of 6 while my next sister only started at the age of 14 once I was out of the house. I also started babysitting at the age of 10 and babysat babies. You might have babysat your siblings but they were older, and you may babysit nieces/nephews etc. but that’s a choice and you were able to say I’m not available. I missed out on Simchos that little kids weren’t invited too even though I was in high school because then my little siblings threw tantrums they also wanted to go and my parents thought they need to be fair. So yes being the oldest comes with lots of responsibilities that are given to us with or without our consent and should come along with the small privileges like sitting in the front seat or getting to eat/drink leftovers from my parents takeout etc. The responsibilities far outweighed the privileges. Also another point the oldest can usually ask and beg for something and not get it and by the time it comes a few years later the middle and youngest get it no problem.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:10 am
| amother Vanilla wrote: | | Correct but then you got the privileges awarded of being from the younger ones. As an oldest there were many things I needed to do around the house and many things I lost out on since I was the oldest. For example I was helping serve and clear the tables from the age of 6 while my next sister only started at the age of 14 once I was out of the house. I also started babysitting at the age of 10 and babysat babies. You might have babysat your siblings but they were older, and you may babysit nieces/nephews etc. but that’s a choice and you were able to say I’m not available. I missed out on Simchos that little kids weren’t invited too even though I was in high school because then my little siblings threw tantrums they also wanted to go and my parents thought they need to be fair. So yes being the oldest comes with lots of responsibilities that are given to us with or without our consent and should come along with the small privileges like sitting in the front seat or getting to eat/drink leftovers from my parents takeout etc. The responsibilities far outweighed the privileges. Also another point the oldest can usually ask and beg for something and not get it and by the time it comes a few years later the middle and youngest get it no problem. |
Again, none of these are inherent to being oldest but rather your parents not being very fair. My parents weren't fair either- I had to clean up the Friday night table for years while my younger brother only ever had to help with the Shabbos day table, which has way less courses and food and was much easier. And when I eventually complained and said it's not fair, it's time to switch that he does Friday night and I do Shabbos day, my mother agreed, he simply refused to switch, and he got his way. That was simply my parents not being fair about it, nothing to do with me being older, they could have put their foot down and insisted.
I intend to be way fairer about it than my parents or your parents were. My oldest will not have a harder job for many more years when they have siblings who can step up and help with it as well- I will actually enforce that.
As far as some of your points, I was 10 years older than my youngest sibling, so yes, I babysat even while I had older siblings still around, and no, it wasn't my choice to babysit my nieces or nephews if they came for Shabbos and my married siblings took a nap. It wasn't my choice to say I'm not available, or to say I'm not available to help make all the beds or do tons of cooking or help sweep the basement or clean up after they left- I had to help with all of that the same way my older siblings had to help when I was little.
I don't intend to make my 14 yr old stay home from a simcha when their 4 yr old sibling can't go, to me it's obvious a 14 yr old naturally can do things a 4 yr old can't. Just because that wasn't obvious to your parents doesn't mean it's not obvious to other parents.
To me it all boils down to, some parents acted unfairly and therefore a child in any point of the family can feel resentful about that unfairness once they grow up, and a parent can act fairly to a child in any family position regardless of whether they're first, middle, or youngest.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:15 am
| amother Mistyrose wrote: | Again, none of these are inherent to being oldest but rather your parents not being very fair. My parents weren't fair either- I had to clean up the Friday night table for years while my younger brother only ever had to help with the Shabbos day table, which has way less courses and food and was much easier. And when I eventually complained and said it's not fair, it's time to switch that he does Friday night and I do Shabbos day, my mother agreed, he simply refused to switch, and he got his way. That was simply my parents not being fair about it, nothing to do with me being older, they could have put their foot down and insisted.
I intend to be way fairer about it than my parents or your parents were. My oldest will not have a harder job for many more years when they have siblings who can step up and help with it as well- I will actually enforce that.
As far as some of your points, I was 10 years older than my youngest sibling, so yes, I babysat even while I had older siblings still around, and no, it wasn't my choice to babysit my nieces or nephews if they came for Shabbos and my married siblings took a nap. It wasn't my choice to say I'm not available, or to say I'm not available to help make all the beds or do tons of cooking or help sweep the basement or clean up after they left- I had to help with all of that the same way my older siblings had to help when I was little.
I don't intend to make my 14 yr old stay home from a simcha when their 4 yr old sibling can't go, to me it's obvious a 14 yr old naturally can do things a 4 yr old can't. Just because that wasn't obvious to your parents doesn't mean it's not obvious to other parents.
To me it all boils down to, some parents acted unfairly and therefore a child in any point of the family can feel resentful about that unfairness once they grow up, and a parent can act fairly to a child in any family position regardless of whether they're first, middle, or youngest. |
No parent intends to act unfairly. Every single one of these parents fully intended to be as fair as possible, just like you do.
Your oldest is still young. Wait and see what life brings. With age, experience, an open mind, and an attempt at understanding beyond your prejudices, you just might discover the reason the oldest is entitled to pi shnayim.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:17 am
| amother Firethorn wrote: | No parent intends to act unfairly. Every single one of these parents fully intended to be as fair as possible, just like you do.
Your oldest is still young. Wait and see what life brings. With age, experience, an open mind, and an attempt at understanding beyond your prejudices, you just might discover the reason the oldest is entitled to pi shnayim. |
This
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:20 am
| amother Firethorn wrote: | No parent intends to act unfairly. Every single one of these parents fully intended to be as fair as possible, just like you do.
Your oldest is still young. Wait and see what life brings. With age, experience, an open mind, and an attempt at understanding beyond your prejudices, you just might discover the reason the oldest is entitled to pi shnayim. |
Ha if only I’m entitled to a single share let alone pi shnayim. I’m reminded often that as a girl I get nothing.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:21 am
| amother Mistyrose wrote: | Again, none of these are inherent to being oldest but rather your parents not being very fair. My parents weren't fair either- I had to clean up the Friday night table for years while my younger brother only ever had to help with the Shabbos day table, which has way less courses and food and was much easier. And when I eventually complained and said it's not fair, it's time to switch that he does Friday night and I do Shabbos day, my mother agreed, he simply refused to switch, and he got his way. That was simply my parents not being fair about it, nothing to do with me being older, they could have put their foot down and insisted.
I intend to be way fairer about it than my parents or your parents were. My oldest will not have a harder job for many more years when they have siblings who can step up and help with it as well- I will actually enforce that.
As far as some of your points, I was 10 years older than my youngest sibling, so yes, I babysat even while I had older siblings still around, and no, it wasn't my choice to babysit my nieces or nephews if they came for Shabbos and my married siblings took a nap. It wasn't my choice to say I'm not available, or to say I'm not available to help make all the beds or do tons of cooking or help sweep the basement or clean up after they left- I had to help with all of that the same way my older siblings had to help when I was little.
I don't intend to make my 14 yr old stay home from a simcha when their 4 yr old sibling can't go, to me it's obvious a 14 yr old naturally can do things a 4 yr old can't. Just because that wasn't obvious to your parents doesn't mean it's not obvious to other parents.
To me it all boils down to, some parents acted unfairly and therefore a child in any point of the family can feel resentful about that unfairness once they grow up, and a parent can act fairly to a child in any family position regardless of whether they're first, middle, or youngest. |
I hear what you’re saying but there are definitely privileges to all aspects.
Same here I hope to be fair with my kids but let’s see what life brings.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:22 am
| amother Firethorn wrote: | No parent intends to act unfairly. Every single one of these parents fully intended to be as fair as possible, just like you do.
Your oldest is still young. Wait and see what life brings. With age, experience, an open mind, and an attempt at understanding beyond your prejudices, you just might discover the reason the oldest is entitled to pi shnayim. |
I actually don't believe this. I think parenting is exhausting, and making choices and decisions and upholding those choices and decisions in the face of complaining kids can take a lot of energy (mental and physical) and a lot of times parents take the lazy way out and just do what's easiest, not what is really most equitable. That's why you have parents giving in to tantrums they really shouldn't, and that's why you have the adage "the squeakiest wheel gets the grease" and that's why you have some parents making whatever decision will entail the least kvetching by the most children. I don't believe every parent is always making the choice they feel is actually fairest, or even that every parent even devotes as much mental energy into trying to do so as they should.
Case in point- those who say "I always let the eldest do XYZ because it cuts down on the kvetching and negotiating from all the other kids."
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:25 am
| amother Mistyrose wrote: | | I actually don't believe this. I think parenting is exhausting, and making choices and decisions and upholding those choices and decisions in the face of complaining kids can take a lot of energy (mental and physical) and a lot of times parents take the lazy way out and just do what's easiest, not what is really most equitable. That's why you have parents giving in to tantrums they really shouldn't, and that's why you have the adage "the squeakiest wheel gets the grease" and that's why you have some parents making whatever decision will entail the least kvetching by the most children. I don't believe every parent is always making the choice they feel is actually fairest, or even that every parent even devotes as much mental energy into trying to do so as they should. |
Believe it or not, you're going to get exhausted down the line too, Mrs. Perfect Young Mother. I was the same when I was your age. All parents start out with ideals. No one plans to end up exhausted and cutting corners.
But I do worry for your eldest, if in your most idealistic parenting stage you're already planning not to assign greater privilege with greater responsibility as your children grow.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:32 am
| amother Firethorn wrote: | Believe it or not, you're going to get exhausted down the line too, Mrs. Perfect Young Mother. I was the same when I was your age. All parents start out with ideals. No one plans to end up exhausted and cutting corners.
But I do worry for your eldest, if in your most idealistic parenting stage you're already planning not to assign greater privilege with greater responsibility as your children grow. |
I mean, I'm pretty sure I said at least three times that greater responsibility will naturally come with greater privilege. But that greater privilege doesn't come inherent with being born first. So if my second kid is the one who was super helpful that day or whatever, then maybe THEY'LL be the one who gets to ride shotgun that day. If my 3rd kid is the one who came shopping with me and helped me get all the groceries, THEY'LL be the one who gets the chocolate bar at the register. If my oldest is the one who helped me set the whole table, THEY'LL get dessert first that day. Not, "oldest always gets shotgun, always gets dessert first, and always gets a treat when I go shopping, because they're oldest."
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:36 am
| amother Firethorn wrote: | Believe it or not, you're going to get exhausted down the line too, Mrs. Perfect Young Mother. I was the same when I was your age. All parents start out with ideals. No one plans to end up exhausted and cutting corners.
But I do worry for your eldest, if in your most idealistic parenting stage you're already planning not to assign greater privilege with greater responsibility as your children grow. |
And being that I already see people at my age and stage being unfair to their kids, or just giving in to tantrums cuz it's too exhausting not to, etc etc, I do believe that not always is it just "as you get older and more exhausted you just cut corners more"- some people just inherently care more about this stuff than others.
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imaima
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 12:42 am
| amother OP wrote: | Say your single children living at home are ages 22, , 22, 20, 18, 16, 14 etc and you often drive places separate from your husband or any other adult. Does the oldest automatically always sit in the front or do they take turn as soon as they are old enough to sit in the front seat?
And IF they take turns do all ages participate in the rotation or just some (ie maybe the 22 would be ousted for the 21 year old but would he/she also be ousted for a 14 year old)?
(Posted by request of my children  ) |
In my opinion anyone who is a grownup should quit caring and participating in a rat race… let the teenagers fight and make a rotation list, but adults shouldn’t be a part of it.
They should sit in the back, maybe occasionally in the front for a change
ETA I see now how heated the discussion is… I can’t wrap my mind around people in their twenties caring. Maybe I because I was married at those ages. Would I not fargin a 14 year old the front seat if they were really adamant? Like who needs this stress
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amother
Melon
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 3:57 am
I'm still a few years off my oldest being a young adult, but something I have tried really hard with over the years is that 'fair does not mean equal'. We have a small family and it would have always been easiest to get always the same things or do the same things as there aren't many children. But I have always deliberately made the choice not to always do the same, so they will understand this concept.
Each child should be getting what they need, even if that looks different from another child. I made a point of going out with each child on regular occasions, individually, whether it was just an ice coffee or a danish, so they felt special.
We started out with rotating turns in the front and as the children got older, they started to care less about it.
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DVOM
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 4:10 am
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I see no reason why the oldest should always get the front seat, but I also never gave my oldest more responsibilities than my other kids. I have 4 teen/tween boys. All were and are expected to cook, clean, run errands, pick up after themselves and each other. Jobs are divided for the most part by preference (one kid likes doing the dishes, one likes setting the table, one likes running errands). We have a loose rotation for the front seat of the car, but no one's too set on it. If one kid isn't feeling well, or has a big project they're taking to school, or wants to talk to me about something while we drive, the switch around pretty easily. If there's fighting, which there occasionally is, no one sits in front. That's a pretty good incentive for the kids to work things out respectfully amongst themselves. Certainly I would expect a 22, 20, and 19 year old to be able to give up the seat for the 14 year old who doesn't yet have the same maturity to understand that seats in the car don't really matter too much.
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amother
NeonPink
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 5:23 am
| amother Firethorn wrote: | Believe it or not, you're going to get exhausted down the line too, Mrs. Perfect Young Mother. I was the same when I was your age. All parents start out with ideals. No one plans to end up exhausted and cutting corners.
But I do worry for your eldest, if in your most idealistic parenting stage you're already planning not to assign greater privilege with greater responsibility as your children grow. |
Wow, you are projecting your own grievances on your kids & on advice on this open forum. Surprise Surprise! Many parents like myself don't place additional burden on the oldest. Also it creates lots of resentment when younger siblings witness the oldest receiving privileges they can never attain.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 9:33 am
So I was curious to hear my oldests option on having a rotation for the front seat. She said that it would be fun for her to always get it, but she didn’t understand the logic that she should get the front seat 100% of the time. I told her that people are saying that oldests have a lot of responsibilities so it would make sense she deserves the privilege and she asked how it could possibly be fair that her younger siblings one of whom is not even 2 years younger who also have responsibilities would get zero.
As the oldest sibling myself I 100% agree with this.
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small bean
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 9:35 am
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Either the oldest or whoever get their first
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amother
Brown
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 9:40 am
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Usually the oldest. It works out fair because eventually the older would get their own car and the next one gets their turn. It’s not a rule I made and enforced. It was just done like that and no one took issue with the arrangement.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 08 2024, 10:49 am
| amother Mistyrose wrote: | | And being that I already see people at my age and stage being unfair to their kids, or just giving in to tantrums cuz it's too exhausting not to, etc etc, I do believe that not always is it just "as you get older and more exhausted you just cut corners more"- some people just inherently care more about this stuff than others. |
This thread got completely derailed. Sorry, op
I just want to say that if you're oldest is only 5 you really aren't qualified to answer or have this conversation just yet.
Yes, oldests do have more responsibilities. When you say you watched your nieces and nephews, it's different than watching your siblings. The expectation of an oldest being home and available to watch the siblings when parents need to go out is different. I was a middle child that watched nieces and nephews and I have an oldest almost 20 year old. I see the differences!
And giving kids privileges equally is just not realistic. You may be unable to take the oldest on vacation because you need childcare for the younger ones. But the youngest you will be able to take because all the older ones will be self-sufficient.
I think you need to give yourself a few years before you can see this argument from the other side
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