Is this normal for BY high school

amother

OP ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 4:23 am

DD in 9th grade told me that a teacher in charge (more like a principal. maybe a head of grade level, but someone with more power than a teacher) saw that a girl had writing on her socks (which is against the rules) and told her off (fair enough) then proceeded to ask her to lift her skirt so that she could see if she had on knee socks or ankle socks. I am shocked. I understand that the school rules state knee socks and not ankle socks, but an adult asking a child to reveal itself is kind of not on, IMHO. I told my daughter if that ever happens to her that she should say that she is not comfortable having adults ask her to reveal parts of herself. I know it is "only" legs but I feel like adults asking children to show parts of themselves is getting towards abuse. She only wears socks without writing and that are long enough, but I would feel insenced if any adult asked her to pull up her skirt!

Chayalle ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 4:28 am

I think you are giving your daughter great tools and you/she are 100% right. I have always been against such behavior by teachers, etc....but as to is it normal, they have been doing this since I was in high school. It has never been normal in my opinion, but yes it has unfortunately been done.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 4:40 am

TY for validating. I am kind of shocked that this is normal these days. I went to a secular girls private high school in the 1990s in a different country and we had a very strict dress code (right down to the type of scrunchies and ribbons we could have in our hair, although in my mother's generation, they had to wear white gloves when not on school grounds, so we were a step above that). We had a few odd teachers here and there who would ask girls to kneel on the ground to make sure their skirts were the right length and one teacher who had methods of checking that we did not wear black bras (it was not written in the dresscode, but our principal had told us on assembly that black bras could sometimes be seen through our uniform and not to wear them) and let me tell you, I am sure that such behavior would NOT be happening in any school in that country these days, as there are very strict child protection laws!
My DD is telling me that so many girls go OTD just from being in such a toxic environment. BH apart from a few nasty teachers, she's getting suh a great chinuch and has great friends, so I do not want to rock the boat, but at the same time, an adult asking a child to show off her legs is demeaning and an abuse of power!!! She said the girl who was targetted (a type who would not say BOO to a goose) ended up crying in the bathrooms!!!

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 5:47 am

But an adult asking a child to reveal any part of the body is surely not the right thing to do? Of course there are school rules which should be followed but if you can not see any part of the child's leg, why is it appropriate to ask it to pull up its skirt? The leg is obviously covered, the teacher can not see skin, so why does the teacher ask the girl to pull up her skirt to see where her socks end? I am not sure what is meant by ankle socks here, but there are socks that go up to the knee, but do not cover the knee, then there are what my gurls call ankle socks, which come up half way up the leg, then there are no show socks, which I had never heard of before, but they are written down as not allowed.

↑ Elfrida

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 6:01 am

No show socks are for people who want the bare leg look, but find shoes without socks to uncomfortable. They are effectively a shoe liner, and don't show above the shoe. Obviously not acceptable in Beis Yaakov.

The lower leg often gets exposed to some extent when running or otherwise involved in active play, and skirts fly up. If the teacher had wanted her pick the skirt right up, to prove she was wearing tights, I agree that would be wrong. Raising the hem by two or three inches below the knee, which can easily become exposed anyway, isn't in quite the same category.

Last edited by Elfrida on Thu, Nov 28 2024, 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Taupe ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 6:05 am

amother OP wrote:

Sorry but pulling up a skirt that goes to the ankles to her calf is not revealing anything. I think you are being over the top. Don’t break rules and you won’t be in this predicament. If you break the rule then deal with the consequence. Your choice.

amother

↑ Taupe ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 6:28 am

amother OP wrote:

To me it just seems like an abuse of power. Obviously the girl was breaking rules by wearing socks with writing. So give a consequence for that. I will never understand how an adult should be allowed to ask a child to reveal any part of its body. Under the knee or anywhere else.

It’s not revealing anything. It’s like saying you can’t look at someone’s finger or ear. Sorry but you have no leg to stand on. It’s not what abuse of power is.

amother

↑ Taupe ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 6:42 am

amother OP wrote:

To be honest I think the lack of parenting is the biggest issue today and it’s the current issue that sends kids otd. Not sure why a girl that felt she was above rules is now playing victim by crying she was caught. She’s old enough to understand she made a choice and chose to blatantly disrespect the school.

Success10

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 6:44 am

amother OP wrote:

If a teacher sees a student suspiciously glancing at her arm during a test and after the test she privately asks the student to roll up her sleeve a bit to see if there are notes written there, is that wrong?

amother

Aster ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 6:46 am

And I imagine this girl who was reprimanded and embarrassed will now have a beautiful view of tznius! Great chinuch!

Sarcastic tone intended.

As a former OTD, who went to a mainstream BY where tznius was enforced in similar manners, I get very upset when I hear this.

No, I didn't struggle with Yiddishkeit because of how they taught tnzius in school. But it definitely contributed to that. And to this day I still get upset when I hear it's still happening.

Why do we police this aspect of Avodas H"Shem? Yes, I know it's a school and they're entitled to have uniform rules and they must set boundaries. But have some rachmanus. This isn't passing notes. We all know that a girl choosing to test tznius has a reason. To call a girl out in public?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 6:50 am

Arms (below the elbow in a community that holds that lower arms can be uncovered) and hands, no.
People hold differently as to what constitutes shok, so asking a child to even reveal a tiny bit of skin on a part of the body that some hold is shok is a problem for some. Cheating situation seems slightly different to me. Child is glancing at arm. Teacher has suspicions, fair enough. For a child whose legs are covered, making her uncover them seems a bit odd.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 6:52 am

amother Aster wrote:

Also, what if that was the girl's only clean pair of socks? Maybe just speak to her and remind her of the no writing policy without going further about length of socks, which, to me, was not an issue, as her legs were ostensibly covered.