So, how’s tuition going?

amother

NeonOrange

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 6:54 am

amother Zinnia wrote:

Not Chassidish and didnt spend anywhere close. And it doesn't add up so quickly if you budget.

Anyway, this thread is about tuition which Chassidim don't seem to have a problem with.

I’m chasidish annd also have a hard time with increased tuition this year…. I was just thinking that on average most ppl in my community don’t earn 20k a month since we don’t have degrees…. If someone has a business he can earn more but most employees don’t earn 5k a week

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:01 am

amother Zinnia wrote:

Yes, I actually do want to see your spreadsheet. We also recently made a wedding bh and it cost us around 30k, and that included stuff that we would need to buy anyway, such as suit/clothing for the chasan and family, Shabbos dresses for me and daughters. Expenses such as car, apartment, furniture, you will need to spend regardless, and since the boy will be learning in kollel and the girl needs to save her money, who else will pay? Maybe it's the system of kollel that should be abolished?

Also, the entire budget of TDL is a tiny, tiny fraction of how much it would cost to sponsor tuition for everybody, and besides, it's not necessarily the same money.

Yes, I would like to see your spreadsheet. And then I'll share how we did it for half.

Sorry, but I don’t actually want to hear about your cousin chanshie who is “good with her hands” and did all of the makeup and hair for $100 flat, or the practically new bedroom set that Uncle Shloimy was giving away, or the Shabbos sheva brachos/ Aufruf that you cooked yourself. This is not helpful.

This thread is about the average standards that have gotten out of control. If you are lucky enough to have married into another frugal family that’s great. The reality is that the average chosson kallah aren’t ok with ikea furniture, cheap shaitels, and no frills wedding items. To insist on frugal, below average standards EVEN if you brought up your kids that way will often cause shalom problems with the mechutanim and sometimes even the young couple. That’s just the reality. That is part of the community problem.

The typical wedding hall, shabbos catering, vort , shaitels and gifts are already over 30k and there’s lots more on the list.

The voice ran a series of articles a while back having a range of Of Lakewood families tally up their wedding costs. The only ones I remember coming in under 70k were the ones that took tzedaka, family help, or gemach money. So yes, my Rav’s number of 75k for the average Lakewood chasunah for one side was spot on

amother

Orange

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:03 am

amother SandyBrown wrote:

This is not an "American Parents" issue. This is a Lakewood issue.

You have had cheap tuition for years and built lives expecting it to continue forever. Many of the families there have huge homes (remember the thread where people said they needed couches in their kitchens!? And people who say 5000 square feet is tiny?). Teens and preteens expect name brand coats, backpacks, fancy watches for 8th grade graduation (um my watch is walmart!), sweatshirts that cost more than I ever dream of spending for myself, matching clothing... a certain type of lifestyle.
I know not everyone is rich and spends like this. But when a huge number do, it raises expectations and means less money to spare all around.

Now those of us out of style OOTners who have paid double your tuition- even now with your "raised prices" - are tired of hearing you complain about tuition. We live in smaller homes than any I have seen in Lakewood. I live in an apartment much smaller than the size of my friend's apartment in Lakewood who complained of hers being so small... my kids wear target and children's place brand sweatshirts. Graduation gifts for 8th grade arent expensive jewelry or watches.... just to start.

This is the epitome of judgemental.

' I am different than you, I am judging whether or not you are right, and I in my infinite wisdom, have decided you are wrong'

Not a 'huge number' spend like this. I don't know ANYONE who has many of the 'examples' you listed.

Why do you hate an entire community?

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:04 am

amother Lily wrote:

That is not average. Sorry.

And for the person including flying in kids from Israel, that is the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Out of the seven siblings of mine who have married kids only one of them has other kids that live in Israel or out of town that would need to be flown in at a significance expense. That's not a general wedding expense, that's a personal expense.

And it DEFINITELY does not cost (or need to cost 75k for chassan side. ) you are referring to upgraded weddings, not the average standard wedding.

Yes, to the person who made this claim, please go ahead and share that spreadsheet of what you consider average expenses. I have no doubt that it will include things that the average person does not buy at prices that the average person does not spend.

Your average large Lakewood family typically has a boy in yeshiva in Israel and often a girl in seminary as well. They need to be flown in, along with any out of town couples that are a plane flight away.

amother

↑ Sapphire ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:10 am

amother Amber wrote:

I'm literally rolling from your comment

"The reality is that the average chosson kallah aren’t ok with ikea furniture, cheap shaitels, and no frills wedding items."

That is so ridiculous and entitled. Too bad on them. If they need designer furniture and custom sheitels they can pay for it that is literally their own problem. And whoever raised them. I still use my ikea furniture and can bh well afford to replace it. What is this world coming to that 20 year old think they deserve top of the line everything for the mere fact they are getting married?

amother

Stoneblue

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:29 am

amother Sapphire wrote:

yeah.. whats wrong with ikea furniture? married about 30 years and love ikea furniture! The only furniture we ever spend a lot on , is our mattresses, because of our weak backs.
Most of our furniture is from Ikea, and I am so happy that my married kids were happy to start out with a mix of ikea and second hand furniture. Oh gosh, I hope that my future in law kids will be the same! cant imagine spending huge amounts on furniture. makes no sense. what a waste of money. I am so baffled by the poster who wrote that they spend 30k on furniture. how weird is that.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:30 am

amother Lily wrote:

Here’s the recent kallah side we made. Just going to list most of the major expenses.

Hall plus mandatory coat room fee plus tips.
Kallahs side. Takana 14k

Lechaim (house) plus smallish vort with cheap music and pictures 4k

Flew home one seminary girl one bochur form Israel 2k total

Two shaitels. 2.5k plus sale shaitel 1.7k 4.2k total

Chassan watch 1200
Becher. 800
Shas. 1100
Chosson center talleisim kittel standards leather Tallis bags, etc 1050

Shabbos sheva brachos 65 people (only immediate relatives both sides) catered cheapest caterer plus hall. 5.5k

Kallah classes 1.5k

Invitations 1800
Postage. 950
Bosch and Braun food processor 700

Hair and makeup for vort 550

Suits hats and shoes for 5 boys and father 3.5k

Shadchanus 1800

Standard Furniture package dinette bedroom set, couch 9.5k

Hair and makeup plus sheitel do up for wedding 4 girls plus mother and kallah 2k

Mother of bride gown plus gemachs gowns for girls plus alterations 1.5 k

Linen, bedding and housewares vacuum pump pot cookware etc. 2.1k

Dance classes 300
Vort and sheva brachos outfits 2k (Vort dress was clearance sale)

Lots more line items. These are just the majors and are already over 50k. They were researched and most done with the Lakewood middle of the road standard, nothing higher, with the most reasonable cheapest option nothing fancy at all other than about 2k extra for the furniture beyond the most basic barebones package with was not very nice.

amother

↑ Sapphire ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:35 am

amother Amber wrote:

Here’s the recent kallah side we made. Just going to list most of the major expenses.

Hall plus mandatory coat room fee plus tips.
Kallahs side. Takana 14k

Lechaim (house) plus smallish vort with cheap music and pictures 4k

Two shaitels. 2.5k plus sale shaitel 1.7k 4.2k total

Chassan watch 1200
Becher. 800
Shas. 1100
Chosson center talleisim kittel standards leather Tallis bags, etc 1050

Shabbos sheva brachos 65 people (only immediate relatives both sides) catered cheapest caterer plus hall. 5.5k

Kallah classes 1.5k

Invitations 1800
Postage. 950
Bosch and Braun food processor 700

Hair and makeup for vort 550

Suits hats and shoes for 5 boys and father 3.5k

Shadchanus 1800

Standard Furniture package dinette bedroom set, couch 9.5k

Hair and makeup plus sheitel do up for wedding 4 girls plus mother and kallah 2k

Mother of bride gown plus gemachs gowns for girls plus alterations 1.5 k

Linen, bedding and housewares vacuum pump pot cookware etc. 2.1k

Dance classes 300
Vort and sheva brachos outfits 2k (Vort dress was clearance sale)

Lots more line items. These are just the majors and are already over 50k. They were researched and most done with the most reasonable cheapest option nothing fancy at all other than about 2k extra for the furniture beyond the most basic barebones package with was not very nice.

Sorry this is not basic at all. This sounds way over the top to me. Dance classes?? R you kidding me? Since when is that a necessity? Why do you NEED a Bosch and braun? 6 suits for 3.5k?? Why is music needed at a vort?

amother

Starflower

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:45 am

amother SandyBrown wrote:

When a previously fixed (or mostly predictable) expense literally doubles in the span of three years, that's challenging. No matter how much that expense was to begin with.

My daughters' Lakewood tuition went up 50% just this year, yes it's outrageous, and it's doubled since three years ago. And guess what? As a born-and-bred OOTer who has many family members and friends still living in various OOT communities, you get a heck of a lot more for your tuition than we do. Our tuition is creeping up to nearly as much as yours, and our school hours are considerably shorter and our teachers less qualified (before you all jump on me, no it's not all teachers, I'm sure that you and your teacher friends and sisters are wonderful and qualified, but as a general rule our teachers are less qualified than in OOT schools).

I have a son in an OOT yeshiva and we pay astronomical prices, but I feel like I get my money's worth there. Not so much in my girls' school.

But regardless of what we get for our increased tuition (absolutely nothing), you should understand that a huge increase is difficult for everyone.

amother

Green

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:47 am

So this thread has majorly derailed. OP, to answer your question, people are probably getting breaks. We live a very average lifestyle I think… and we get very nice breaks. Never had a problem with that BH. I’m always so surprised when people write how they got a few hundred dollar break. My son’s yeshiva gave us a $10k break. We’re not poor BH, although struggling like the average frum family.

And to the poster who wrote that 5000 sq ft is a small house. Come on. Literally no one thinks that. I have wealthy friends who build mansions that big. The average Lakewood family lives in a 2000-3500 sq ft house. (3500 is considered a very nice size house)
Btw I have a small couch in my kitchen. Instead of a kitchen table. I like how it looks. It cost about $200.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:52 am

amother Sapphire wrote:

This is Lakewood STANDARD - all my daughters lower class or middle class friends got Bosch mixer and Braun Food processor. You can rant and rave about it but this is the kallah standard and maybe part of the problem. Shabbos hats 250 X 6. Shoes 90x 6.
3.5 included Tztzis, Tallis, socks , yarmulkas, Most of the suits were around 300 one more $ for a hard to fit boy. Very standard. Nothing extravagant at ALL in the 3.5 k.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:55 am

amother Green wrote:

What do you do if you signed the contract and realize three months in you bit off more than you can chew (with the break)? Does the tuition board want you to be living a “normal” life I.e you
Can buy groceries for your family and buy clothing (at least!) from target/old navy? Bc we can’t. And I don’t think they care. Last year we begged them to go down and they said no—bc you have savings. Use those up first. That is so so dangerous!! That money (modest) is put away so that we can pay for our kids bar mitzvas!!!

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:56 am

amother Sapphire wrote:

The reality is that you can’t choose the type of family you are marrying into. Your daughter is lucky enough to get a date with a normal boy. You can’t just filter by frugal type families. A middle class family with normal social standards in Lakewood has normal middle class expectations. If you try to go super cheap on them and tell them you don’t believe in keeping up with the Joneses, you will cause major stress and Sholom issues with the mechutanim and potentially Sholom bayis issues with the chosson and kallah. It’s just the reality. It sounds nice to go super frugal in the abstract, but it’s just not always practical.

amother

↑ Sapphire ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:56 am

amother Amber wrote:

You can say it's standard but it's only standard if you buy into that. If people would stop it then it wouldn't be standard anymore. Don't go crying you can't afford things when you need to do things just because everyone else is.

amother

↑ Sapphire ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 7:58 am

amother Amber wrote:

The reality is that you absolutely do choose what type of people you go out with. You clearly want a certain type of family so that's what your child dates.

amother

↑ Amber

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 8:04 am

amother Sapphire wrote:

The reality is that you absolutely do choose what type of people you go out with. You clearly want a certain type of family so that's what your child dates.

You must be very blessed. We were lucky to get one yes every 6 to 8 months for most of our girls we absolutely could not pick and choose, besides, what I am describing is your average normal regular middle class family with standard Lakewood hasagos, not some rich highfalutin folks.