What’s the point of seminary?

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling -> Seminary Info

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amother

↑ Darkblue ↓

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 1:52 am

amother Broom wrote:

There's theoretical and reality. In theory, you are right. In reality, it's extremely challenging to do this in a heavily conformist society. Your post addresses only the positive - where a child wants something and you make it to be an individual choice. The challenge is when you don't want something, but you do it anyway because standing up against the tide, being the lone outsider is extremely difficult.

Individual and being a conformist is opposite behavior. You can't instill them in a children at the same time. Again, theoretical, if you find the perfect balance, it can be done. But that's not doable for society as a whole.

100% but that is exactly what the Torah wants us to be! במקום שאין אנשים השתדל להיות איש
It’s definitely not easy! And we will all fail, but I truly believe instilling this into our children both the positive and standing against the tide- I do think it is possible and it will make all of us much less angry (above posters) about decisions we made. Yes, we can even make informed decisions that are mistakes, but when we own it- I chose to go to seminary because I thought it was the right thing for me, unfortunately I chose the wrong seminary. What can I do about it? We teach our kids to take ownership of their life and not- ugh. Seminary is overrated. Your five year old chose a junky toy after you tried hard to encourage a stronger one? It breaks. Now what? All toys are garbage? Or I chose poorly? Obviously our little kids won’t learn from that, but I think if a parent models this thought process of making conscious decisions, taking ownership of them verbalizing what we are doing- it makes a major impact on our kids

amother

↑ Darkblue

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 1:56 am

amother Broom wrote:

Let me put it this way. If money wouldn't be a consideration:

- it would be quite valuable for me to take my family on a trip to Europe to visit holocaust memorials and ancestors history.

- it would be very valuable for my dh to learn in kollel forever

- it would be very valuable for me to hire a live-in so that I can be fully present for my kids at all time.

Etc....You get the drift. There is value in so many different things. Unfortunately, money is the primary consideration for us to be able to enjoy those values. You can't take money out of the equation (unless you are financially comfortable). So the fact that seminary has value doesn't make the case to push all of our kids to attend.

But here’s the thing- these are things you value, not everyone would say the same thing. And I posed the question so that people could actually think whether they value seminary in eretz yisroel. Not whether you can afford it. Again, many ppl bashing seminaries here solely based on the tuition. So yes. We make decisions based on what we can afford. And we push our financial limits for the things we REALLY value. For some, that is kollel. Others, designer handbags. Others both 😂

imaima

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 2:08 am

CPenzias wrote:

Same! It was an amazing year for me. I wanted to go for a 2nd year but got married to my boyfriend 😉 my son is there now and bh enjoying it. And I'm not paying 50k. Idk where that figure came from

The boyfriend you have met during the 1st year of seminary?

amother

Bellflower

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 4:36 am

I think its for the girls to grow up and be away from their family im a different country. I am a BT and went to sem for 2 years. Had an amazing time, met so many people, grew up a lot. There were 2 ffb sems next to ours and a lot of the girls were super loud and annoying (we could never sleep at night). Some took the learning very seriously though, stayed in the library until late and some just went to get their nails done, to froyo and spent time with their friends. But I guess all of them grew up a bit just by being away from their family and finding themselves. I think its easier to find out who you really want to be when you are away from your regular environment. And I think sem is a perfect way for girls from dysfunctional and/or abusive families to get away. So for those girls its a must imo.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 5:40 am

amother Garnet wrote:

I went to sem in EY.
I regret it. I did make some lifelong friends (my roommate visited me over Sukkos - we went 23 years ago!) but other than that, it was a hard year for me. I was homesick till Pesach.

It is VERY much like camp. It's ridiculous that it has become the norm.

How is it like camp?
Must have been to a very different sem than I went to. There was serious learning. Nothing like cmp.

↑ shabbatiscoming

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 5:43 am

imaima wrote:

The boyfriend you have met during the 1st year of seminary?

I actually had a girl in my sem who married the guy dhe started dating in high school. They both did the gap year and then continued on with life.

blueberry32

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 5:48 am

I disagree with many of the posters about how it is a waste. I came out of seminary a total different person than I went in as, I cannot compare myself to who I was before. I cant say I would of married my husband or been raising my kids in the way that I am. I am so grateful for the values I learnt there, they taught me how to build myself into my potential. I didnt go to a sem that pushed in your face how you should live your life, but instead they helped us become the best people we can be each in our own ways. This was unlike high school, which most mostly focused on Studies and social pressure.

amother

Oak

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 5:58 am

I regret going I actually did not want to go in the first place but my parents pushed me to go. I wish I did the half year program or just went to visit for a few weeks. I did not like the classes, living in a dorm, the food in my seminary was horrible and I literally survived on chips. My high school teachers were way more in tune with us, way more interesting and inspiring.
I enjoyed being in ey but I feel like I would've enjoyed more if I went for a month or two then an entire year.

amother

Magenta

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 6:04 am

For those who need it, it's amazing and life-changing.

For those who don't, it's a waste of time and money, and often even harmful.

I did not go to seminary because I wasn't interested in another year of school, and I don't regret it.

But then again, I went to camp for 5+ years, had a great time in HS, came from a large, stable and solid family, and was exposed to many different types of Jews as I grew up.

The only thing seminary had to offer me that would enhance my well-rounded upbringing was a year in Israel. That's nice, but not worth the investment.

amother

↑ Mustard

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 7:34 am

amother Darkblue wrote:

It’s so funny how you think it’s a hype, however you never went yourself. I think someone with real maturity could say- unfortunately it was too expensive or it wasn’t something I was interested in. The way you are going about describing how “mature” you became and how adult you were and oh- marrying the best guy- doesn’t come across AT ALL like you are trying to overcompensate for something it sounds like you wish you did. Just my opinion.

Seminary, like anything in life is an amazing opportunity for the right kid that is looking to grow. Just like sleepaway camp isn’t for everyone, sem isn’t as well. Living in eretz yisroel alone for a year is such an amazing opportunity for those that don’t plan on living there after marriage. Seeing different Jews. Experiencing different things. It’s not only about the classes. It’s about living with other people not related to you and communicating. It’s so much more than one thing.

Well that was a little hurtful.
You chose to read into my words that im not as "mature" as I'd believe, and im overcompensating for what I wish I had- I promise you 100% that isnt true. I never felt bad that I didnt go, I had a fantastic year of growth regardless, and I went to EY with my husband and toured the land etc and it was beautiful. Please dont put words into my mouth.

As far as the "maturity" you seem to doubt I experienced...what can I say? It did happen. When youre thrust into real life, and there's no Morah telling you to be in class by 9:30, or to meet the buses at 10 for a pre-arranged tiyul, and you need to start adulting, you do. You mature. You handle a busy school schedule, a work schedule, you learn about insurance and W2s, you learn that if you truly value your ruchniyus, you'll have to make time for it and push yourself to go to the shiurim because no one else is forcing you to.

And then when my friends who I had missed so dearly came home in June, the difference was jarring and it was so plain to see. They were still giggly, hyper, telling me they were nervous to start real life and werent sure what they were really doing and "ooh lets go get iced coffees" all the time, and dashing off to camp, while I was in a full time school/work schedule, and just...more grown up.

As far as mentioning "marrying the best guy". I apologize if that indicated to you a lack of maturity or a subconcious need for overcompensation- the truth is I purposely mentioned it to give chizuk to anyone who is nervous about not sending their daughter to sem in EY, as I know it is common for people to hear that not going to sem = hard time with shidduchim. BH I did not experience that at all. Hashem is truly in charge. I had no particular wealth, or yichus, and I had the audacity to ask for a learning guy even though I hadnt gone to sem. And BH, it easily happened.

Ruchel ↓

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 8:13 am

It can be great or not or everything in between

If done for shidduchim while hurting you financially it's awful

And definitely not needed to find the man HASHEM decided for you bat ploni le ploni

My daughter has friends who go because parents decided and cry or rage

PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 9:07 am

amother OP wrote:

I’m a BT and I went to seminary but that’s because I needed the basics and foundation to build a frum home. As an ffb what’s the point of seminary? Why spend so much money doing more schooling when that money could go towards learning a trade or working towards a career to help support their husband/family one day? I ask without judgement, I just don’t get why someone would want to have more school work after finally coming out of high school.

Just read this post, not the rest. There are a number of things that get conflated:
Seminary in EY and seminary in chu"l.
Sem for girls in town and OOT.

Let me explain. When we talk about seminary, there are chu"l options. Though back in the glory days of MASA and other grants that had a different rubric than FAFSA, and when seminaries were cheaper than they are now, going to EY wasn't tremendously more than chu"l for a family that didn't qualify for FAFSA. MASA and other grants were only for sem in EY.

And, parents did NOT automatically go to EY to visit, or bring their girls home for Pesach.

Now, about in and out of town, if you're talking about US sems, please remember that not every community as an in-town option.

One more thing: I do think that seminary is invaluable. The learning will be different. There may be other experiences and opportunities for growth and training offered, whether in EY or chu"l.
I don't now if it's NECESSARY though.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 9:09 am

familyfirst wrote:

It isn’t the knowledge per se. It is the combined experience of living with others, being independent, and spiritual growth. These are huge reasons. Hopefully, it all goes as hoped.
If credits are earned, then it really is a good investment.

Having said that, there are seminaries and there are seminaries. All of the above perks can be gained from a reasonably priced seminary. $50,000 a year is beyond.

Probably include all the extra expenses, many of which aren't necessary.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 9:10 am

amother Lightblue wrote:

Do you see the point of college? Many people felt that someone is ignorant and uneducated if they do not have a college degree.

When I went to seminary, 30+ years ago, it was touted as INSTEAD of college. It was supposed to be a higher, deeper level of learning. I do agree that it's a lot to go to college and seminary both.

40 years ago it was touted as BEFORE college, that if girls are going to be getting a more sophisticated exposure to different studies, they needed to see more sophistication in Torah.

amother

↑ Lightblue ↓

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 9:19 am

PinkFridge wrote:

40 years ago it was touted as BEFORE college, that if girls are going to be getting a more sophisticated exposure to different studies, they needed to see more sophistication in Torah.

This might be community dependent. Girls in my circles weren't, and still aren't, encouraged to go to college.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 9:21 am

I don't know any 60 year old woman who went to sem. Unless you mean teacher sem like BY pre war etc.

amother

↑ Lightblue

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 9:23 am

Ruchel wrote:

I don't know any 60 year old woman who went to sem. Unless you mean teacher sem like BY pre war etc.

Huh? Seminary was around for a long time. Bais Yaakov Intensive in Boro Park was from at least 1950? and my mother went to Bais Yaakov Yerushalayim in 1967 as an American girl. She would have been 74 now if she were alive.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 9:26 am

I just personally don't know any that I can think of. Or wait maybe one who went to a place in Israel as a baalat teshuva. I'm unsure of she is under or over 60. But the concept of going to sem as a thing after high school? Definitely much more recent for me.

amother

↑ Ultramarine

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 9:27 am

Besides the logical reasons to each side of the discussion ey has something beyond there is a spiritual aspect to living there that you can’t explain and you see it בחוש that it changed the girls when they come back.

↑ Elfrida

Tue, Nov 12 2024, 9:32 am

Ruchel wrote:

I don't know any 60 year old woman who went to sem. Unless you mean teacher sem like BY pre war etc.

I do. She's actually 65.

And I can think of quite a few more in their late fifties.

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