What’s the point of seminary?

amother

Mayflower ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 9:49 pm

I love how so many posters saying it's overrated and they don't see a reason for it did not go to seminary. It's hard to judge something you never experienced yourself, dontcha think?

I loved seminary and would absolutely not be the same person I am today if I'd stayed home that year. For the record, I didn't go to a seminary that's a year-long camp. We had outstanding teachers and worked hard. I also loved loved loved living in EY for an entire year. Experiencing every YT there. Really getting to know some families in Yerushalayim and seeing how they live. Going to the kosel at least once a week all year. Touring the land from the Negev to the Galilee with the seminary and also with friends. All of that is priceless, and not something you can get from a summer trip to EY.

It also didn't cost my parents anything close to 50k. It was under 20k and they were very tight with spending money, leaving me free to supplement with my own money as I chose.

With all that being said, I still don't think it's an absolute must. If the parents really can't afford it, even with scholarships and the girl paying some, and there's no home situation that makes it crucial for the girl to be away for a year, it's really fine to just stay home. Plenty of people where I live don't go and there are wonderful seminary options close to home.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 9:52 pm

amother Mayflower wrote:

I love how so many posters saying it's overrated and they don't see a reason for it did not go to seminary. It's hard to judge something you never experienced yourself, dontcha think?

I loved seminary and would absolutely not be the same person I am today if I'd stayed home that year. For the record, I didn't go to a seminary that's a year-long camp. We had outstanding teachers and worked hard. I also loved loved loved living in EY for an entire year. Experiencing every YT there. Really getting to know some families in Yerushalayim and seeing how they live. That's priceless, and not something you can get from a summer trip to EY.

It also didn't cost my parents anything close to 50k. It was under 20k and they were very tight with spending money, leaving me free to supplement with my own money as I chose.

With all that being said, I still don't think it's an absolute must. If the parents really can't afford it, even with scholarships and the girl paying some, and there's no home situation that makes it crucial for the girl to be away for a year, it's really fine to just stay home. Plenty of people where I live don't go and there are wonderful seminary options close to home.

And not going to seminary should be equally acceptable. The options shouldn't be to either go to Israel seminary or local seminary. The first consideration should be to decide whether they do or don't want to go to seminary. Once it's established that they do want to go, they then should evaluate whether local or Israel seminary works best for their particular circumstances.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 9:56 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

Let them have a year to just be. Mature. Work on ones self. Be in eretz yisroel.

It's a nice thought and would be great if everyone can have that luxury. But for 20k-50k? And to go into debt for it or strain your financially strapped parents budget?

There are plenty of ways to mature, work on one self and even take a breather without much cost.

↑ Elfrida ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 9:56 pm

amother NeonYellow wrote:

My Kollel husband said he considered seminary as a year of camp.

I'm curious as to what his opinion was based on. Most bochrim aren't experts in seminary culture.

If that's based in repeating what his parents said, or observation of his sister in one seminary - I would want him to broaden his view a bit.

amother

↑ Mayflower

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 9:57 pm

amother Garnet wrote:

I went to sem in EY.
I regret it. I did make some lifelong friends (my roommate visited me over Sukkos - we went 23 years ago!) but other than that, it was a hard year for me. I was homesick till Pesach.

It is VERY much like camp. It's ridiculous that it has become the norm.

Sorry, that depends which seminary you go to. Do you think every dorm school, I.e. yeshiva is camp?

As I mentioned, my seminary was NOT like camp at all, but I visited my high school friends in their seminaries and yes, it was totally camp. I would never send my daughter to one of those seminaries. What a waste of $30k+

amother

↑ Darkblue ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:08 pm

amother Broom wrote:

I agree. It definitely is a luxury. However, if a parent truly feels it would benefit her daughter, and it’s something that your daughter wants, there are ways to do it. I have a close friend that saved all her summer money and babysitting money, applied for a scholarship for sem and sent herself. I don’t think we need to teach our children that all of these luxuries are coming to them and should be expected. However I do think that one cannot compare living in eretz yisroel for a year, while learning and growing. Yes. You can mature anywhere. But there is something special about living in eretz yisroel. Point blank. It may not be for everyone. And honestly- it takes a lot of souls searching for girl and her parents about whether it’s the right thing for that individual. But I disagree wholeheartedly with every poster here saying it’s a waste of money or it’s all hype. I went to a high school with 75 girls in my grade. I’d say 3/4 of them absolutely loved our school. While the other 1/4 didnt. I’m pretty sure in any situation you will always have people who find the worst in any situation versus the others who find the positive, make do with the “less desirable roommate “ and navigate living the day to day.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:16 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

As long as it's treated like a luxury and recognized as a luxury then it's all good.

The problem becomes when society sort of creates a mandate for it, I.e. shidduchim, schools actively campaign for it etc. That's what creates the problems.

We just need to change our approach for it. Drop the societal pressure, the schools should be much less involved (acceptance won't be much of a concern if it's truly considered optional), and it shouldn't impact shidduchim. Each individual should decide what's best for her based on personal circumstances.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:17 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

I guess my main question for everyone would be- if money were out of the equation- is seminary in eretz yisroel worth it? Because everyone is stuck on the money. Because yeah. It’s a lot. But I wonder if ppl would say, well if money weren’t an issue then yes, Of course it’s worth it!

If money weren't an issue, almost every experience in life would be worth it!

amother

↑ Darkblue ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:22 pm

amother Broom wrote:

And that’s our job as parents to raise our children to think as an individual. We can’t tell schools what to do. We can’t tell shadchanim what to think. But in each individual home- we should show our kids that we make decisions solely based on what is best for each individual. It’s our responsibility. No one else’s. There will be societal pressure for every last thing we do in our life. Marrying young. Kollel. Kids. Buying a home. We need to teach our children to make conscious decisions.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:28 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

Agree with you. But we can't play it both ways. If you live in a society that aggressively pushes for conformity, you can't expect individualism for select behaviors.

So which one is that we want - individualism or conformity? Are we open to stop this one size fits all expectations that our educational system promotes? Are we open to a more broader age for marriage ? Different style weddings? No more kollel en masse, etc? If not, we can't cherry pick when we want individualism to come into play.

It doesn't work.

amother

↑ NeonYellow ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:29 pm

Elfrida wrote:

That's nice. If you think he cares that you want him to broaden his view, then your clearly deluded. He's entitled to his opinion, as you are yours.
I would just advise the seminary girls to watch their behavior and what they say out loud in public (buses) and at Shabbos tables by families hosting them. People are listening and forming opinions.

amother

Green

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:31 pm

I think you have to ask the question as 2 questions

What's the point of seminary in general?
What's the point of the American seminaries in EY?

I'm European and went to seminary in England. I gained immensely from my time there. I grew up in a tiny community, very sheltered. I learnt a huge amount of hashkafa and limudei kodesh which has helped me a lot in passing on to my family and building my own home. I learnt to live with other people of all shapes, sorts and cultures. I learnt to value and experience all types of Yidishkeit, to see how other people do things, to value different skill sets and types. I grew a solid base which came a lot from spending so much time together with other people with similar value systems.
BUt
English seminaries are 2 or 3 full years not 9 months.
There are no "chavayot"
It's not about experiencing the country, neto about what the seminary is offering
It's way, way cheaper than EY and all Shabbosos are provided.

I've seen other people from my home town who went to EY for 9 months and their experiences had way less of a positive impact on them.
I've also taught in seminaries in EY. It's very hard to give over a solid base in such a short amount of time.

I don't know what local American seminaries offer. I would imagine it's somewhere in the middle.

So I would say that the point of seminaries per se is to give girls a chance to solidify their hashkafos before they move out into the world, to experience living closely with all types of people and to learn an immense amount of limudei kodesh which is hard to do when you're studying a career track at the same time.

The point of seminary in EY specifically should be to give all that PLUS the experience of living in EY. But I don't think that the current system is working.

amother

↑ NeonYellow

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:33 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

Still depends. And since the seminarian won't take money off the table, your question is academic, at best.

Seminarian are a business, don't be fooled into thinking the are altruistic.

amother

↑ Darkblue ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:35 pm

amother Broom wrote:

But here’s the thing. If you are doing something with intent, regardless if it’s the same thing as someone else- you are an individual. I don’t care if other people are thinking oh, she bought that sweater, 100 other people did. What matters is my intention- it’s a good price point, it’s tznious, I feel beautiful in it. NOT I’m just buying it because everyone else has it. Yes, living in a community so close knit can get us confused as to what we want for ourselves vs what “everyone” has. If we can get to our core, and teach our children the same, then we can live very authentic lives. And if your kid asks you for a toy because “everyone else has it” it’s a great opportunity to connect to our kids young when they can actually articulate what they want and feel vs as we get older it seems so childish to say, but everyone has x. We make up other reasons or excuses.

↑ Elfrida ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:35 pm

amother NeonYellow wrote:

So what was his opinion based on?

Extensive research?
Personal experience?
Detailed study of the curriculum?
Hearsay?

amother

↑ Darkblue ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:40 pm

amother NeonYellow wrote:

Still depends. And since the seminarian won't take money off the table, your question is academic, at best.

Seminarian are a business, don't be fooled into thinking the are altruistic.

They definitely are a business, and altruistic might be the wrong choice of words, but I definitely don’t think the schools are only in for the money. The owner of my seminary taught classes on a regular basis. He definitely cared about his students and helping them grow.

I was asking my question simply to let people be honest with their response. I’m not pretending that the money isn’t an issue, but I do think many people are putting down seminary in eretz yisroel SOLEY based on the money and not on anything else

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:41 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

There's theoretical and reality. In theory, you are right. In reality, it's extremely challenging to do this in a heavily conformist society. Your post addresses only the positive - where a child wants something and you make it to be an individual choice. The challenge is when you don't want something, but you do it anyway because standing up against the tide, being the lone outsider is extremely difficult.

Individual and being a conformist is opposite behavior. You can't instill them in a children at the same time. Again, theoretical, if you find the perfect balance, it can be done. But that's not doable for society as a whole.

amother

↑ Broom

Mon, Nov 11 2024, 10:48 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

Let me put it this way. If money wouldn't be a consideration:

- it would be quite valuable for me to take my family on a trip to Europe to visit holocaust memorials and ancestors history.

- it would be very valuable for my dh to learn in kollel forever

- it would be very valuable for me to hire a live-in so that I can be fully present for my kids at all time.

Etc....You get the drift. There is value in so many different things. Unfortunately, money is the primary consideration for us to be able to enjoy those values. You can't take money out of the equation (unless you are financially comfortable). So the fact that seminary has value doesn't make the case to push all of our kids to attend.