Children ordering parents around

ora_43 ↓

Thu, Aug 01 2024, 3:06 am

I second the stern "we don't talk to mommy and daddy that way."

If it continued, I might add a step to the process - once you've said 'no, you do it' you then have to say 'sorry' before 'could you please...'

eta: I'd do this for the 5-year-old, once they're actually 5, not for the 3-year-old.

I wouldn't punish for this (eg revoking privileges) even if it's really out of hand, because it's semi-spontaneous. Like, the kid knows what they're doing, they know they're misbehaving - but at the same time, they don't have a lot of time to think it over and choose to do better. So I'd just keep up the 'we don't talk like that', 'you owe your father an apology,' etc, until they figure it out.

amother

Lime

Thu, Aug 01 2024, 5:48 am

amother OP wrote:

What's your method of handling this?
My 4.5 and 3 year old tend to order us around and make demands. For example, if we say "Go get your backpack so I can put your snack in it," they'll retort, "You get it!" If they want milk, it's "Give me milk! Get me my milk! Get my cup and put milk in it!"

To be clear, we don't allow ourselves to be ordered around! We respond to their demands by gently correcting them and rephrasing it for them, pausing to give them a chance to request it properly, and only then giving them what they asked for. And there are plenty of times where they do on their own ask for things politely the first time, and they are so cute with their genuine "thank you!"s. But it's the constant ordering around and the instant "no, YOU do it" to every instruction we give them that's really getting frustrating and annoying. Especially when it's something there really is every reason they should be doing- like picking up their own toy that they want or getting their own tissue, etc. It's not like we're asking them to do stuff because we're too lazy to.

I know I'll get some people telling me that it's normal for their age. But we'd like to start putting our foot down and making it unacceptable for them to order us around like this. My husband especially finds the lack of kibud av v'eim grating and would like to work hard on instilling that respect. He feels our nearly 5 year old should for sure be able to understand the concept that you can't tell a mommy and totty what to do.

Anyone else in this camp, and what was your method for teaching that?

Tell your children: "When Mommy says something you don't tell Mommy to do it, that's chutzpa." "This is your backpack. You need to get it yourself." "If you want milk, you will need to ask nicely and bring me your cup, or you won't get milk."

From my experience having them rephrase and then giving it to them is only helpful if the source of the problem is language-related. If the source of the problem is something else then rephrasing and giving it to them won't help because at the end of the day they DID order you around - they told you to do it and you did it. So they rephrased in a way that you are okay taking orders from them, so what?

amother

Azalea

Thu, Aug 01 2024, 6:01 am

OP, I differentiate between them wanting YOU to do something for THEM, vs. you wanting THEM to do something for YOU, and they're refusing.

I've went through this process with my family a number of years ago

For the first - I had a family talk around the supper table (even with the three year old age range) , and said "There's an important value that we're going to work on a s a family . It's called "self-sufficiency". That means , that as a general rule - when someone is able to do something for themselves, they do it themselves. It's an important midda to work on. Of course, if someone needs help, they can nicely ask for help"

And then - when someone said something like "bring me my cup" or "give me a snack" or "find me my shoes"
I sang my little ditty called "seeeeeeeeelf sufficienct, yes we're soooooooo seeeeeeeeeeeeeelf sufficienct" Smile

That was usually enough to get a smile and the kid scurrying off to get what they wanted

Important note - You have to model this as well. If you're constantly asking them to do things for you , you might have to tweak your own behaviour first.

Next is helping out/listening to parents - That's about chessed, kibud av vaem, helping each other out as a family, and other values. It's not always easy to draw the line but there is a difference.

amother

↑ Beige

Thu, Aug 01 2024, 6:44 am

ora_43 wrote:

I think your dh is right to name this as a separate behavior that needs to be corrected. I get why there's backlash here, because your kids are really young and it's not hugely bad behavior. But I think maybe people are reacting from a place of, correcting = punishing, being gentle = not making too many demands. And personally I disagree, I think correcting can be gentle, and that correcting annoying behavior actually makes it easier to stay gentle as parents. Just MHO.

I agree 1000%

Correcting gently IS the most gentle.

Not correcting is setting your kid up for harshness later in life.

When my 3 YO took something from a store, I noticed when we were outside, I said "whoops, we can't take something without paying, and Mama's not going to pay for this. We went back into the store, went to the guard (Israel) and I said 'my child accidentally took this'". IMO that was gentle correction. Sure SOME people who are super pro corporal punishment would say I should have spanked, but normal people would say no, because it was pretty normal for a 3YO.

I recently saw a video on youtube of a girl who looked about 10 YO stole from her mom and then was talking back when her mom confronted her. Not only that, but in the video the mom just seemed exhausted and did not seem to even punish the girl, and we didn't even see her force her to bring back the teapot she bought with the stolen money! Now everyone in the comments was sayong that girl should be hit! Lots of comments like "I'm against spanking except for this girl!"

So if you don't (gently or not) correct ypur child when they do age appropriate misbehavior, when they get older and do age inappropriate misbehavior, the rest of the world will NOT be gentle with them!

amother

↑ Gladiolus

Thu, Aug 01 2024, 7:27 am

amother OP wrote:

I mean, my kid smacks me too when they're very upset- not on my face but on my back, my leg, whatever is in hitting range at the moment. I can view it as "They're just expressing their sheer frustration and anger at me and lacking the control to do it in a better way", which is true but end result they're hitting me and that's unacceptable. Just because there's an understandable reason for a certain behavior doesn't mean the behavior is tolerable.

In this case, they're asking for something but the improper way they're asking is also not an acceptable way- not because of my ego or whatever but because the Torah says they can't. If my two yr old starts to talk to me that way, I will work with it because clearly this is not something I can even expect a 2 yr old to begin working on, but a child who's about to turn 5 definitely has the ability to understand it's not ok, and this is the age where I would start to get serious about "you can't talk this way, we're gonna work on helping you develop the skills you need to control your wording".

Ok im going to try to explain what my issue is with how its coming across. Its a subtle thing in how you are speaking not this big deal but its striking me as a potential power struggle which is why im going to try to point it out to you. You sound like you are doing a great job actually dealing with the behavior. Like I said my way is communicating the expectation, modeling, and rewarding the positive. When trying to teach a new skill which is how I see this I don’t believe in serious consequences. Natural yes, but not this strong type of reaction that your behavior is unacceptable. And theres these hardcore lines you better not cross. Even your first example if my kid is hitting im personally not going to have the child punished sent to room etc. im going to teach the acceptable response to frustration and make the “unacceptable” not work for them. So they wont get what they want by hitting. In your example I wont give them the cup if they ask inappropriately so again making it not work for them. So I guess what it originally sounded like you were looking for these hard core lines/ messages you were looking to send to your child “that behavior is totally unacceptable and at this age I expect you to know better”. Yours and especially your husbands strong reaction of “ we can’t tolerate this” is what is begging for a power struggle in my opinion. whereas my approach is a little more subtle and in my opinion non confrontational meaning its less likely to lead to a power struggle- my actions would show not so much words “I get that you are frustrated/feeling lazy etc but thats not a nice way to speak and when you speak that way it doesn’t fix your situation if you speak this way you will more likely accomplish your goal and I will be so proud of you for acting mature” etc.
also there arent the ages where they better know better. I look at it as fluid. You brought up what Hashem wants from us which a good model for parenting. Yes He expects things from us He also knows at times we mess up, heres how we correct it and move on . Hashem doesn’t strike us when we mess up he has rachamim and gives us many more opportunities to correct our behavior.

amother

Bronze

Thu, Aug 01 2024, 8:33 am

amother OP wrote:

I agree with all of this as well. Like I said, I do feel that even if my child doesn't have the self-control to stick to it, it should at least be very clear that this is the standard to work towards.

My kid came out of bed for something earlier tonight and out of curiosity I asked, "What was the rule Totty told you tonight?" and my kid replied "Kids can't tell mommies and totties what to do." I said, "Right, why?" "Cuz mommies and totties are in charge of the family." Very Happy

So they get the concept of the rule but I do expect it won't be easily mastered. But we can refer back to it as needed to explain why I'm not doing what they demanded.

I do work hard to notice the good and verbalize how proud it makes us, Hashem, etc, but will definitely make sure to give special attention to this now.

With my 3 y/o these ideas have worked:

I use a script: I hear that you wish/want xyz. please ask with respect. In calm, loving, connecting manner because trying to teach not get into a battle of wills.

I try to see if there is another barrier as to why she’s asking me to do it. Kids typically like to independent and take care of their things so I try to see what might be in the way? Is what they want easily accessible? Are they busy with something else?

Also-sometimes this is a strategy for connecting for our little ones. See when it comes up and check the environment. Is the matzav at home rushed? My daughter gets clingy, kvetchy and “bossy” when I haven’t connected with her enough, am rushing through a morning/evening routine, etc. maybe it’s something else for your kids but see if you notice a pattern.

Being respectful and considerate takes until adulthood to master so setting a wide rule like this and trying to enforce it might bring more negativity into your home as each slip-up (which is inevitable with this age especially) will bring negative energy into your home FROM YOU if you see it/treat it/respond to it as breaking a rule.

Hold your ground and parent your children with an end goal in mind but if you want patient, gentle, kind children you will need yo offer them patience, gentleness and kindness.

amother

Wandflower ↓

Thu, Aug 01 2024, 9:38 am

Teaching respect is a lifetime work, but you are right to pick up on it and start now. All children should learn that they should ask adults, not tell or demand. And they should use pleasant tones.

Step 1: Model

Make sure both parents are speaking respectfully.

Step 2: Teach.

Spend a couple of days explicitly teaching to ask don't tell and use pleasant tones. Use puppets, dolls, and role-playing.

Step 3: Emotional Coaching and Reminders.

"give me ice cream NOW!"
Acknowledge and name her feelings, if necessary, then once child is calm, remind her of the rules, ask her to rephrase, reward her generously. Follow this step for at least a week.

Step 4: Emotional Coaching and Prompt.

Prompting includes, short phrases to remind the child of the rules of respect. Such as "politely please", "was that a question? ", "can you find a another way of saying that? " Follow this step for at least 2 weeks.

Because your children are very young, you may even decide to remain on step 4 until ages 5 or 6, when you should definitely start step 5.

Step 5: Block.

At this point, the child is well aware of the rules and has been practicing them for weeks, maybe months.

Now you are teaching self control. When a child starts speaking disrespectfully, you stop the communication with a phrase such as "I beg your pardon", "that is not how you ask", or"would you like to try that again"

(If the issue of telling, not asking a parent is not accompanied by disrespectful tone AND the child has gotten a lot better so that it only happens rarely, you might stay on step 5. But if the child is highly disrespectful or is not improving significantly since step 1, you should go on to step 6)

Step 6: Consequence.

Don't get stuck on step 5 for too long. After a few weeks, you should explain that and been working on respectful communication for a long time and from now on, to help the child remember the rules, there will be gentle discipline if she forgets. It can be something like losing screen time or writing an apology.

There are many people who will argue that this is an over reaction. I disagree.
Ensuring that your child is capable of speaking respectfully to authority can help them for the rest of their lives, teach self control, will make your home much more pleasant, and will make you and your husband actually enjoy spending time with them instead of being constantly irritated and disrespected.

↑ #BestBubby ↓

Thu, Aug 01 2024, 9:58 am

amother Wandflower wrote:

Step 6: Consequence.

Don't get stuck on step 5 for too long. After a few weeks, you should explain that and been working on respectful communication for a long time and from now on, to help the child remember the rules, there will be gentle discipline if she forgets. It can be something like losing screen time or writing an apology.

There are many people who will argue that this is an over reaction. I disagree.
Ensuring that your child is capable of speaking respectfully to authority can help them for the rest of their lives, teach self control, will make your home much more pleasant, and will make you and your husband actually enjoy spending time with them instead of being constantly irritated and disrespected.

100%

A good consequence, after you have repeatedly reminded your children to speak respectfully is

do not give the child what they demanded

If they order " give me juice "

Say, because you did not ask nicely you are not getting juice now.

Maybe in 10 minutes if you remember your Derech Eretz you can have juice.

amother

↑ Wandflower

Thu, Aug 01 2024, 10:30 am

#BestBubby wrote:

That might work. There are all sorts of ideas for gentle discipline.

I would phrase it a bit differently.

"I'm so sorry, but as we discussed, when you don't follow our rule of ask don't tell, you have to wait 6 minutes and then we can try again." Set a timer.

amother

↑ OP

Mon, Sep 09 2024, 9:52 am

Thanks for all the imamothers who responded!

I read through every response, thought about all of it. I wanted to give an update Smile

The next day after this original post, I told my kids (3 and almost 5) that we're gonna play a game where I'm going to point out something I want and I'm going to ask for it twice, nicely and rudely, and we're going to give a thumbs up when I asked politely and a thumbs down when I was rude and demanding. They had a lot of fun with the game, especially when it was their turn to practice asking for something and they got to ask for it super rudely. We played again the next day as well.

From then on, anytime they asked for something nicely, I proudly gave them a thumbs up or told them they did a great job of asking in a thumbs up way. If they demanded or ordered, I quietly told them, "That was a thumbs down way, can you ask in a thumbs up way?" And it really, really worked. They would laugh and immediately correct themselves, there was no power struggle about it. We've been doing it over a month and it's worked all along. Now I just quietly say "That was thumbs down" or, if they're looking at me, I just quickly show them a thumbs down, or I ask, "Sure, can you say it thumbs up?" and all of those options have worked well. My kids are pretty stubborn and even so they've almost never refused to rephrase. The one or two times they did I took the advice above and just said something like, "Looks like you're having a really hard time with that today, I'll help. Mommy, can you please give me a cup? SURE!" and gave them a cup before they could respond negatively in any way.

I do stand by my original thought which was that my kids are definitely old enough to work on this skill, the responses above refined my thoughts on how to work on it, and I definitely think the explicit instruction and turning it into a game helped a lot. I have been working very hard on sidestepping other power struggles as much as I can, too, so that was helpful guidance as well.

Thank you all! I'm super happy with our progress.