Can the older generation alleviate the housing crises?

↑ Cheiny ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:27 am

amother Wheat wrote:

Make up your mind. Do you want Jewish families to be able to live in respectable way, or do you think it is more important that billionaires buy 20 homes and leave them empty?

No one is taking away peoples homes a la Cuba. But governments incentivise people all the time.

I don’t have to “make up my mind.” Your reasoning is beyond illogical.

Wanting every Jewish family to be able to have respectable housing options, and not believing in socialism, are not mutually exclusive.

I think it’s a horrific idea to limit what any person can buy if they can afford it and choose to. What they do with their homes is none of anyone’s business. Would you like someone checking out every detail about how you live and the choices you make regarding your property, and judging, deciding you shouldn’t be spending on what you spend on? What if I decide that you should not be permitted to extend your kitchen, because the extra land on your property should rather be closed off, built on and put on the market for another family to enjoy? Where does it end?

If you believe in socialism you're of course free to move to another country that employs it (or vote for Kamala), but as far as the US, even suggesting that our personal decisions about how we spend our money or what homes we buy be dictated by the likes of others, is beyond ridiculous.

Isn’t it great that there are numerous organizations we all (or many of us) contribute to in order to help others in need? How about the fact that the parents who pay full tuition for all our kids are helping to cover and easing the strain for the free and reduced tuition many other parents who can’t afford it (and unfortunately even some who can) get?

So now we have to donate our housing too? What’s next?

amother

↑ Lotus

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:28 am

Cheiny wrote:

Defining what ”don’t need” means is very subjective. YOUmay think or decide they don’t need it. But that’s irrelevant. THEY might believe they do need it, for various reasons, and ultimately it’s their home, their decision, their right. What if they feel comfortable there? Are you aware of how difficult change is, especially a move from their current living situation, for an older person? What if the stress of that change would cause them major emotional stress and upheaval?

Why are the “needs” of the younger generation more important than those of the older, and especially why do the younger think they know better, and that they have the right to decide for the rightful owners of the home what they should and shouldn’t do with it? This is presumptuous, chutzpahdig and selfish.

I have seen my parents, grandparents and great grandparents go through this so yes, I do know how hard it is.
I've also seen the huge relief when they get to a place where they can more easily deal with the housework, where there are no stairs etc.

I'm not saying anyone should force. That's why I say people are taking it out of context. Many times people aren't moving due to the difficulty with the move. They might be absolutely delighted for someone to help them with it.
Sell their house for full market value.
Get real help packing up and dealing with their stuff (often the biggest hurdle).
Move to somewhere more convenient and suited to their needs.

Obviously they can say no. But the option might be win-win.

↑ Cheiny ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:34 am

amother Lotus wrote:

“Might be” is a huge presumption. So is the rest. Don’t you think they’re aware of the option? It’s when someone else decides to push that option, for selfish reasons, that’s a problem.

↑ shabbatiscoming

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:54 am

amother Lotus wrote:

Yes they would.
OP is in Europe where there are not other houses on the market near enough to the kehila. There just aren't.

I'll give you an irrelevant example on purpose. The moshav of Tifrach was built up by frum families around the yeshiva. It's mostly zoned as farming land so young couples wanting to settle near their parents are really stuck.

I had never heard of Tifrach so I went to look into what and where this place is.
I know this is going off on a tangent, but you are wrong. Tifrach wanted to stay small. Some places are not meant to expand.
From the article I read: "Several years ago, when Meir Porush was deputy housing minister," says Finkelstein, "he offered to authorize the construction of 1,000 apartments in Tifrah, but we turned him down." Why? After struggling for so long to survive, wouldn't the influx of residents have breathed new life into the little moshav? "We would have gained a thousand homes," Finkelstein says, pausing before delivering the moral of the story, "but we would have lost what was unique about Tifrah."

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:59 am

Raisin wrote:

Some of you have very warped views on selfishness. Just because I can afford a 5000 sq foot mansion doesn't mean I should buy it, especially when it means that 5 young families will be living in substandard accomodation because of me.

There are not infinite resources of anything in the world, we should all be mindful and not wasteful.

I get this, but what's the tipping point? Is 3000 sq ft too much?

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:04 am

amother Lotus wrote:

I think many of you are taking this way out of context.
OP is simply suggesting that people who no longer need their huge houses downsize so that people who do need the space have the possibility of buying in.
She didn't say they should lose money on it.
She didn't say they should live in their basement - that was someone else's suggestion.

She has a point.
Is there a way to help or encourage people who don't need the space and may even be finding the upkeep difficult to move into smaller accommodation so that there are more big houses on the market?

What would that involve?

As I said, it gets complicated. Too early and they can't host the way they want to and deserve to. Too late and they might not be able to acclimate to a new city (if relevant) and they might have eldercare financial issues.

amother

↑ RosePink ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:26 am

I hesitate to write this because it will inevitably be people misconstruing as my saying this must be done.

If the issue is affordable housing, then it requires action by either the government or by private community groups.

In New York City, I am most familiar with various ways government was used to provide affordable housing for the middle class. This was done by Mitchell Lama as the entire Coop City in the Bronx was funded in this way. Some community groups also funded middle income housing on a smaller scale as the some of the unions funded coops with very low inexpensive pricing.

Of course this doesn’t solve the issue of wanting homes built in specific areas. Coop City in the Bronx was not a desirable area when built as it was a long commute and Roosevelt Island was also viewed initially as being remote. 🤷‍♀️

I have read that the Syrian community in Brooklyn will purchase homes or provide money to subsidize purchases of homes for less affluent families because the community is so bonded with wanting to keep the community geographically intact. Of course it also helps that there are some enormously wealthy members and that many of the community is affluent as well.

If living in Zurich in a specific small geographical area is an important goal for the community, then people should start an organization to fund building a large building which can house people at below market value rents 🤷‍♀️ Otherwise having older people sell does not solve the affordability issue as their homes will be sold to other wealthy people and having one home given to one child is not a viable solution for most people.

↑ Raisin

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:40 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I get this, but what's the tipping point? Is 3000 sq ft too much?

Great question, I guess every person can work that out for themselves. Lots of factors. How many kids, work from home, hosting etc.

I am not saying there should be laws on peoples home sizes. I think this should be a personal cheshbon.

I have a close friend who lived in a homeless shelter with her child while many people I know own empty second homes. Its horrible that chidren today are growing up like this, not living in adequate housing.

Many young people work very hard and don't spend money on expensive matching clothing or starbucks. The fact is that housing takes up a much bigger chunk of peoples paychecks.

amother

↑ Wheat ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:49 am

amother Watermelon wrote:

What do you mean live in a respectful way? Did your grandparents grow up living in a huge home? Mine didn't. And I don't think it was disrespectful. They worked their way up. If you don't like your living situation figure something else out. Don't expect your grandparents to give you part of their home.

And serious, all the threads before yom tov about how people can't stand moving in to their in laws for a few days....u wanna share a house with them now for years on end??

afaik my grandparents all lived in respectable homes. I didn't grow up in the US but my father grew up in a 4 or 5 bedroomed house, he was the only child. His mother grew up in a large home. Her parents were immigrants from Eastern Europe who did well financially.

My parents were able to buy a house as soon as they got married. We didn't have a lot of money but lived in a very large house bh. A family on a similar income now would prob be renting a 3 bedroom apartment. (and be facing frequent evictions and moves - another issue with the private rental market - lack of stability)

I don't think anyone should share homes! Everyone needs their own space and to be in charge of their life.

Many homes can be divided in creative ways.

To add- if my grandmother would have moved from her huge house to a more suitable no steps apartment as she approached old age I would have had her around for a lot longer. She passed away from a fall down some steps in her home. Many older larger houses are just not great for older people.

amother

↑ Watermelon

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:52 am

amother Wheat wrote:

You think if your grandmother didn't live in a big house she wouldn't have fell and lived longer? I don't think gd works that way.

↑ Cheiny

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:03 pm

amother Wheat wrote:

It was Hashem’s decision to take her at the time He decided. It wasn’t the stairs.

amother

↑ RosePink

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:33 pm

Older people move out of their homes all the time and have always done so. They have moved to warmer climates or into condos with less maintenance or even followed children who moved far away.

What they don't generally do is give their home to one child.

They sell it for fair market value which is expensive in every desirable area - not just frum and then buy something else and generally save the rest to augment Social Security since retirement is expensive.

What is a momentary blip in the market - and happening all over - is that because interest rates are relatively high, people are not willing to sell because they don't want to give up their favorable interest rates when they purchase something else or they are waiting for interest to fall so that they can sell for a higher amount - bottom line is that people can "afford" a certain mortgage - if interest rates are high, the purchase price is less and vice versa.

No one has offered any explanation as to how someone seling their home at fair market value solves the issue of high home prices in certain areas making them unaffordable to people with lower income.

amother

↑ Papaya

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:35 pm

amother Wheat wrote:

No they don't.

From what I understand in communist Russia the elite had plentiful housing including vacation homes, regular people lived in small apartments. (although at least everyone had somewhere to live)

There are other solutions apart from that.

making it harder or more expensive for people to buy second homes or turn long term rentals into airbnb is not the same as communism, lol.

Very few

amother

Maroon ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:35 pm

My grandparents lived in this large condo. It was designed to stay suitable even as they aged especially since my GM was dxed young with a disease that she knew would impare mobility... but it was a lot of space. Well, my aunt really wanted her kids to go to a much better school in my GP's school zone (not frum), so my grandparents gave her the large condo and then moved into this much smaller condo. Good schools are super important to my GPs.

It was supposedly temporary but we all knew it wasn't... My grandmother complained the first few years, but then got over it.

Now my GM has a lot of trouble with her mobility and it's such a bracha that she has a 2 bedroom, first floor condo. She was able to do the downsizing when she was much more mobile.

Now this was there choice, but it was hard. But at the end of the day, they helped themselves more than they realized.

At the point they moved, they were already at the stage where they weren't hosting much and any guests they had stayed by my aunt.

amother

↑ Birch ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:40 pm

With all due respect I wonder if this is how your GM would tell it
You seem to gloss over her “complaining a few years” what was supposed to temporary be though “you” all knew better and she got over it” though it was “hard”
Don’t mean to harsh your mellow but I’m busy picking my jaw up from the floor
Chas v shalom we ever talked about our grandparents and parents like this
“They helped themselves more than they realized”?! According to who?!

You pretty much made the case all by yourself for everything that is wrong and dangerous with this threads premise

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 1:20 pm

amother Maroon wrote:

How could your Aunt have made her parents downsizing more palatable and easier on her Mother?

This "we all knew it wasnt" makes it sound like you were pulling one over ole Grandma...

How do you know she got over it? She stopped complaining? Thats just a beaten woman.

If the first condo was designed taking into account your grandmothers health situation and anticipated mobility challenges, why was the move a bracha? Why couldnt she have just stayed in the condo or moved back after the children grew up.

amother

↑ Wheat ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 1:44 pm

amother Watermelon wrote:

You think if your grandmother didn't live in a big house she wouldn't have fell and lived longer? I don't think gd works that way.

Yes, she likely wouldn't have fallen if she wouldn't have had so many stairs to trip over.

Of course, anything could happen at any time, but she died as a direct result of the fall.

Also, its not very comfortable or fun to have go up or down stairs to get a drink of water or go to the bathroom.

Houses often do move between generations in families.

My friends parents just switched with their kids - their kids moved into their house, they moved into the kids apartment. Hopefully financially this was done in a fair way.

chv no one should pressure parents into doing anything they don't want.

I would love my parents to move from their huge, impractical, expensive to run house. Not because I want the house. I don't live anywhere near them. But I know it would be so much easier for them to live in a one or two story small house or apartment. IYH living in such a house would enable them to live independently for many more years, and not have to move into an old age home.

amother

↑ Wheat

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 1:47 pm

I will add the housing issues in many cities are not only caused by older people staying put in large homes, there are multiple other reasons, and each city has its own unique circumstances.

Its just one reason out of many.

I do think older people do directly benefit from having children living close to them.

amother

↑ Wandflower

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 1:54 pm

I have a friend whose husband's grandparents were downsizing and this friend wanted to live in that neighborhood, so the grandparents sold the house to their grandchildren. They could not have lived together, it was too small. And they could not have not sold it as they needed the money to be able to downsize and buy something else.
I just dont understand this thread for so many different reasons. So many.