Can the older generation alleviate the housing crises?

amother

↑ Vermilion ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 8:11 am

amother Green wrote:

Again, this is a very narrow view of how to live. Why does someone need a all jewish building ( which needs a jewish millionaire to buy and rent)?

You need to live walking distance to each other. I can't believe that there is no where in the entire Switzerland where a satellite community can not be established, within an hour to an hour and a half drive of the original community.

If I remember correctly Lucerne has some kind of tiny jewish infrastructure ( chabad, mikvah) and its about an hour from Zurich ( so you can travel for work, school, and kosher food). You get a group of young people to move with a Rav, and establish yourselves in whatever available apartments in walking distance of the shul. Its also so pretty there!

You have a carpool system initially, and once more people the existing main school can establish a satellite school.

Or you can move to Strasbourg, which is far, but still close enough to travel and see grandparents, much closer the the NY people who move to Cleveland (even though everyone is leaving France, but still its a pretty solid community and more affordable then zurich)

So let me explain it to you point by point.
We need jewish owned buildings, because jewish families with more than 2-3 children will unlikely get apartments and in any case affordable apartments are so scarce that whenever there is an empty one, the lines of interested tenants are so long, they sometimes go down a whole street, so the chance of getting an apartment are…almost zero.

And also, what use is it to me if there is another two families but we are all spread out across different neighborhoods and streets? If we already make the move and pick ourselves up we would at least have to live on the same street. There most likes are no couple of empty apartments in the same street at the same time. Each building is owned by a different person. And the apartments owned by non Jews are most of the time tiny and not equipped for a big jewish family. Do you get now why the building should be owned by a frum Jew?

Lucerne is not as expensive as Zurich, but still not cheap enough for it to make sense to move there. And the commute to schools in Zurich are easily 1-1/2 hours one way.
You have to calculate the costs of travel (two cars per family, train passes) it‘ll easily come to 1000.- so the rent has to be max 2000.- a month in order for it to make sense financially.

The language spoken in Strasbourg is french.Neither my kids nor I and my husband speak a word of it. Would you move to a foreign country with a completely foreign language? Probably only as a refugee ch“v.

amother

↑ Burgundy

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:06 am

amother Watermelon wrote:

Do you think our grandparents grew up in huge houses with big backyards?? News flash...most of them didn't and turned out just fine. They worked themselves up to where they are today. My grandparents grew up in crowded apartments in Brownsville, lower east side, Williamsburg etc... most of our grandparents also didn't get new clothes every season, didn't go out to eat, and didn't go on vacations. Some of the people occupying these huge houses that you think is unfair survived the holocaust. What entitlement to say they should move into the basement so your kids should have a nicer place to live.

Very true. My grandfather said that he grew up in a house with 20 rooms. "How many room did you and your parents and seven siblings have, Grampa?"
But both sets of grandparents lived in easy walking distance of all their relatives.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:17 am

OP, I am willing to bet that if you, today, got your dream mansion, you would be reluctant to give it up and downsize in your 50s, and even in your 60s and 70s and probably in your 80s and 90s. It would be interesting to hear from you in 30 years to find out what you ended up doing.

I am totally cognizant and not unempathetic with your current situation. However, you cant solve your problem the way you do a swing in the park, with everyone getting a turn, then getting off to give someone else a turn.

amother

↑ RosePink ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:51 am

amother Bluebell wrote:

The Amish have a system where the youngest child with his family takes over the main house and the aging parents move into the Daudy Haus, a grandparents house that is often a smaller attached apartment. They contribute to the family by pitching in as long as they are able, and are taken care of by the family and eat meals with them while the young family has room to grow.

The English aristocracy also had this through primogeniture until it was outlawed in the 1920's. The widow moved into the Dowager Cottage Very Happy

Actually the reality of the modern Amish communities is that most children have to move away or figure out how o support themselves because farm land in the traditional areas has become so expensive if they want to continue to lead an agrarian lifestyle. There are communities outside of the "Pennsylvania Dutch" area because of that.

Not to mention that Amish are specifically exempted from Social Security tax and so there is no comparison between retirement for the Amish and retirement for most people who generally can't "gift" their principal asset because they need it to live a dignified lifestyle when they retire.

amother

↑ Valerian

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:55 am

amother Vermilion wrote:

We moved from one established community to another. There are no Jews on our immediate street, and honestly it doesn’t bother me. We moved because we needed a bigger place and there was nothing affordable where we were living.
Regarding your last paragraph, people do it all the time. They move from one country to another when they get married. They make Aliya. My cousin moved with her Israeli husband and Israeli kids to Canada. It happens and it CAN be done. You just have to be willing.

amother

↑ Vermilion

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:21 am

amother Valerian wrote:

Of course it can be done. When people make aliya they either speak some hebrew or go and live in an anglo community.
Leaving our family, jobs and schools behind and going to a new country where the entire family would have to learn the language just in order to find affordable housing is a bit crazy.

amother

↑ Wheat ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:24 am

Can swiss citizens just move to any EU country?

Also, the UK is now no longer in the EU.

Outside of France (very different culture if you don't speak french) and the UK there are not many big frum Jewish communities in Europe - Zurich, Vienna, and Antwerp - am I missing any?

I really have no idea why older people would want to stay in big empty houses.

Most of my kids are away in Yeshiva or married and I hate having a big empty house.

But it gets full at yom tov. Once I am past the stage of being able to host my kids for Yom Tov I don't need acres of empty rooms. One or two guest rooms will be fine.

sometimes tax rules and rental laws cause issues.

amother

Cherry ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:26 am

amother Vermilion wrote:

So is blaming the grandparents for making you live in 400 square feet.
You've closed yourself off to any other suggestions other then having the older generation give up their houses for you. There isn't much else to discuss then.

amother

↑ Papaya ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:38 am

I can only see this happening if the older generation is not able to take care of themselve s and you are willing to take care of them. And if you grew up taking care of the older generation
I would NEVER make them move from their master bedroom.

My widowed grandfather lived with us all his life. But it was my parents home. He got the best bedroom and a private en-suite bathroom.

I know ppl that when they build their home they make a private in-law quarters.

But under no circumstances are they asking their parents, or grandparents to gift them the home they worked so hard to own.
And then moving them to a down graded apartment. ????

amother

↑ Lotus ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:46 am

I think many of you are taking this way out of context.
OP is simply suggesting that people who no longer need their huge houses downsize so that people who do need the space have the possibility of buying in.
She didn't say they should lose money on it.
She didn't say they should live in their basement - that was someone else's suggestion.

She has a point.
Is there a way to help or encourage people who don't need the space and may even be finding the upkeep difficult to move into smaller accommodation so that there are more big houses on the market?

What would that involve?

amother

↑ Watermelon ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:55 am

Raisin wrote:

Some of you have very warped views on selfishness. Just because I can afford a 5000 sq foot mansion doesn't mean I should buy it, especially when it means that 5 young families will be living in substandard accomodation because of me.

There are not infinite resources of anything in the world, we should all be mindful and not wasteful.

It is not selfish for an elderly couple to continue to living in their home that they worked hard for and bought.

amother

↑ RosePink ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:58 am

Raisin wrote:

Somebody is going to buy the 5000 square foot home at fair market value. Whether one person stays in the house - buys the house or a rich family buys the house, it will still be too expensive for a person of modest means to buy.

It doesn't make prices decrease in a very desirable area.

The premise seems to be if older people moved out of large homes, that would make them available to younger people. But that doesn't solve the issue of the cost as there are always homes available for fair market value. I can buy a house theoretically on the Upper East Side or a 10 room coop on Park Avenue tomorrow - provided I can afford it. I can buy a house for $3,000,000 in the Pico Beverly Wood section of Los Angeles or Hancock Park.

The only relevant type of housing are Mitchell Lama or equivalent housing in New York City like the Amalgamated Apartments on 23rd Street or the Cadman Plaza coop in Brooklyn Heights. These condos were built for middle class families and have a waiting list so you must "sell" to the next person on the waiting list rather than the highest bidder. These were the conditions when you were lucky enough to be able to purchase one and the size of your family determined how many bedrooms you could "buy". So there is a situation in which children have moved out and the parents still have a larger apartment and so they should move into a one bedroom when available in the same building. But that is a very very unique type of housing.

What OP and others seems to *want* is for older people to give away their homes so that they are "affordable" to people who can't afford fair market value of a home or apartment in a desirable area.

Most people I know don't live in mansions - they live in relatively modest three or four bedroom homes. They can't be carved up into multiple apartments as it would probably violate zoning laws.

amother

↑ Wheat ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:59 am

amother Bluebell wrote:

Why stop there? Why not force all wealthy folks who have 8000 sq ft houses on 3 acre lots in Lakewood/Jackson/Toms River to subdivide the interior of their houses and built additional units on their property where zoning allows. You could fit 10-15 young families instead of one family taking up all that space that they can’t even use. If we are going to do forced sharing don’t stop with the old folks….

Is there a shortage of land in Lakewood?

I can't imagine why people would want an 8000 sq foot house but I am not rich. Me, I just want a house with big enough kitchen, laundry room and bedrooms.

But yes, I think there should be a limit on how much property people can buy. Second homes also play havoc in many housing markets, as does airbnb, people buying houses and leaving them empty and so on.

Cities and governments need to get creative on how to solve this issue which is affecting many people in a negative way.