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amother
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 Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:06 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I am writing this due to my very uncomfortable situation. I am literally at a loss.
I come from a city where the young generation does not have where to live. This is not an exaggeration of any kind. There are no nearby places for young couples to go. The community is looking to expand and relocate but there are literally no option. It's not in the USA like Monsey or Lakewood where people can move out.
This is where I start wondering. There are many older couples who have married off their children and are living in huge houses with 4,5,6 bedrooms, huge living dining room and kitchen. I wish those older couples would see their children and grandchildren struggling with raising families in holes. I live in 400 square feet with 2 growing kids. I literally do not have where to put another kid.
If those grandparents would split their houses and rent out the units to 2-3 families (including basement and loft) it would really alleviate the housing crises. Those couples were fortunate to buy those houses when they were young marrieds themselves and now that they don't need it, it would be a great service to put some of them back on the market to sell.
I am thinking of two of my grandparents living in a ridiculous amount of space which hardly gets used. They can keep some parts for themselves and rent or sell the rest. Whenever I pass these huge empty houses, I fantasize.
Most of them have had a double digit family themselves and support large families. Now it's time for us to raise ours. But where?
I just feel so hopeless at the moment. What's going to be? Where should I raise my kids? In my tiny bedroom? Small windows, no porch, no space for my stroller or suitcases. |
It's not your place to tell someone else to move to make your life better.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:08 pm
| Dolly Welsh wrote: | Maybe the house stays the property of the parents, no "give her the home." And yet, while retaining ownership, the grandparents move to either a guest room or a well decorated and equipped basement.
The young couple would pay most or a lot of the maintenance expenses. They wouldn't be boarding there for free. That would free up some of the grandparents' income.
OP is living in 400 square feet right now, with husband and two children. They both work. So they have income. That income could go toward their parents' house's expenses.
They would certainly continue to buy their own food and other needs, as before.
They would be giving the money to their parents, instead of to their present landlord.
"Money for retirement" often means "money to live for housing." Well if your son-in-law is housing you, by working and paying your house's expenses instead of an apartment's rent, then you aren't worrying about "money for retirement." |
Forgive me but I just can't wrap my head around the idea of putting the grandparents in a guest room in their own home!
You want to let your kids live with you? Kol hakavod! Not something I can ever see myself doing and I admire those who want to try. But why are we pushing the owners into a guest room or basement? You're essentially pushing the grandparents into the same 400 square feet that OP's living in now, and I'm sure you know that not only young families need more room, any human being does!
Besides, by aloting the grandparents, aka owners, their own quarters, aka guest room, it becomes clear that your goal is to eventually get them to leave. They start feeling so uncomfortable in their own home that has now been taken over and run by their married kids and once some time passes they'll probably just leave.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:08 pm
| Dolly Welsh wrote: | Maybe the house stays the property of the parents, no "give her the home." And yet, while retaining ownership, the grandparents move to either a guest room or a well decorated and equipped basement.
The young couple would pay most or a lot of the house's maintenance expenses. They wouldn't be boarding there for free. That would free up some of the grandparents' income.
OP is living in 400 square feet right now, with husband and two children. They both work. So they have income. That income could go toward their parents' house's expenses.
They would certainly continue to buy their own food and other needs, as before.
They would be giving their money to their parents, instead of to their present landlord.
"Money for retirement" often means "money for assisted housing or smaller housing." Well if your son-in-law is housing you, by working and paying your house's expenses instead of an apartment's rent, then you aren't worrying about "money for retirement." |
This is absolutely crazy. Give it up already. No one wants to live in the basement of THEIR home.
The OP either needs a better paying job or to move to a more affordable neighborhood. The end.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:08 pm
| amother OP wrote: | If you're just here to be rude, get off my thread.
Honestly, I'll ask to have it locked if it's going to go down this route. No need for these kind of nasty posts.
Why would I put my grandparents in a nursing home? Did I imply anything like that?
Also, how big is your house, 2000 square feet? |
What give's you the right to tell someone not to post. And, her comment was a perfect answer to your sellfish post - asking others to relocate so you can have more options.
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Amarante
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:16 pm
| Dolly Welsh wrote: | Maybe the house stays the property of the parents, no "give her the home." And yet, while retaining ownership, the grandparents move to either a guest room or a well decorated and equipped basement.
The young couple would pay most or a lot of the house's maintenance expenses. They wouldn't be boarding there for free. That would free up some of the grandparents' income.
OP is living in 400 square feet right now, with husband and two children. They both work. So they have income. That income could go toward their parents' house's expenses.
They would certainly continue to buy their own food and other needs, as before.
They would be giving their money to their parents, instead of to their present landlord.
"Money for retirement" often means "money for assisted housing or smaller housing." Well if your son-in-law is housing you, by working and paying your house's expenses instead of an apartment's rent, then you aren't worrying about "money for retirement." |
Nothing is stopping OP from asking her parents to move into the basement so that she can take over the home their parents own.
If her parents want to make such a gift to their child, then Zei Gezunt - it is between parent and child. But the other children unless this child is an only child might have not like one child being so disproportionately favored. Why don't you give your child your home so they can move in and relegate you to a child's bedroom or the basement
Nothing is stopping any parent from moving their children and grandchildren in and sharing the space.
You don't seem to understand the economics of home ownership - it can be $1,000,000 or more in value. I really don't know how you picture these parents - up until a certain age they lead very full and vigorous lives.
Otherwise are you planning to force all people above a certain age to give up their homes to some central community organization that will then dole out the seized homes to what basis?
Are they going to pay fair market value for the seized homes?
Again I am just pointing out that there is nothing stopping anyone from giving their child their home and moving out or into the basement.
But to act as if older people are somehow selfish for not giving their children their homes is really entitled.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:21 pm
| essie14 wrote: | Sorry, my kids aren't King Charles who gets to live in his Mommy's palace. My kids will work hard and buy homes they can afford just like the rest of the world does. If they happen to buy near us, great!
If not, we will be happy for them to be establishing their independence.
Neither set of our parents live near us.
I don't think any of our kids want to stay in our community. Their married friends are all moving to younger communities. |
Well that’s the point of this thread
Working hard can’t afford you a home anymore.
That’s what this generation is dealing with.
I also live in a place where noone can buy nowadays just by working hard and G-d forbid pinching pennies. It’s not Zurich and not Israel but it’s the same.
No two salaries can buy you an apartment from scratch that can house a family.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:22 pm
| essie14 wrote: | That's a completely different story.
For example, the city of Jerusalem has major issues with ghost apartments and they've enacted laws and policies because of it.
That's not an issue where I live.
DH and I are among the "pioneers" of our community. We moved in when there was 1 small shul, no resources, no amenities.
We, and the few other families, worked hard to develop this neighborhood into the community that it is now. We all took a huge risk and bought homes here and now the community is thriving and prices rose. Of course they did, because a lot of blood, sweat, and tears went into building this community. So for young people to waltz in and expect me to sell my house for less than market value, because my kids are grown and the house is "too big" for us (why does anyone think they get to make these decisions for other people?), reeks of entitlement.
You know why this community is so popular and in demand?
Because 20 families worked hard to establish it!
People are clambering to live here now and DH and I deserve to get a return on our investment.
You want cheap housing? Go move to a small/unestablished community.
You want to live in a thriving, vibrant community? Well, someone had to come before you and make that happen. It didn't happen by accident. Now you have to pay the price for that which the market commands. I don't make the rules. It's economics 101. |
Where is the OP suggesting that people sell their houses for below market value?
I absolutely think many older people would be much happier in smaller and more manageable houses or apartments. I know many older people who move, its quite normal to do so. Also a person who brought up a family in a suburb or yishuv, might be happier moving into a more central city at an older age.
And if parents want to sell or rent their house (or part of it) to their kids, absolutely it should be at market value. Although it is true that the child who ends up living with their parent will probably end up taking on a lot of care duties so I think some discount would be fair.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:27 pm
| amother Denim wrote: | Explain why I need to forgo my house even for my own kids. I sweated and saved to buy it all with my own money, no one helped us do it. It's mine! Is it suddenly something that now belongs to them just because they think they now need it more then I do? What kind of attitude is that?
I hate to break it to you but that's not how life works. |
Well I have been referring to some cultures where it is done, because people believe that they need to equip their kids with a property anyway. My own uncle switched up with his son and moved into a smaller apartment and gave the son a bigger apartment because he was raising a family.
The uncle doesn’t need the space.
I wonder if people who got help from parents to buy a house would want to give the same to their own kids. Or will they let their kids be „independent“?
Do you guys also kick out your teens at 18 because your job is legally done?
Is it the same attitude as the postpartum help?
If noone helped me, I will help noone.
Why would noone want to break the cycle?
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:29 pm
| amother Sapphire wrote: | Well that’s the point of this thread
Working hard can’t afford you a home anymore.
That’s what this generation is dealing with.
I also live in a place where noone can buy nowadays just by working hard and G-d forbid pinching pennies. It’s not Zurich and not Israel but it’s the same.
No two salaries can buy you an apartment from scratch that can house a family. |
I thought the point of this thread was to blame the older generation for the housing crisis because they don't want to give up their homes?
Look, everyone agrees with you. Housing has become unaffordable everywhere. It's true that it's impossible to buy a home on 2 salaries and that people go into debt just to be able to raise a healthy family. But there are also options other then forcing the older generation out of their homes or asking them to share it, which means giving up most of their space.
The fact that it was easier to buy nice homes 40 years ago does not mean that the oolder generation now has a chiyuv to part from these homes just because their children have decided that they need it more.
And if I might add, it might have been easier to buy then but it doesn't mean they were all able to afford it. They scrimped and saved too! They might have gone into debt then too!
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Dolly Welsh
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:31 pm
| Amarante wrote: | Nothing is stopping OP from asking her parents to move into the basement so that she can take over the home their parents own.
If her parents want to make such a gift to their child, then Zei Gezunt - it is between parent and child. But the other children unless this child is an only child might have not like one child being so disproportionately favored. Why don't you give your child your home so they can move in and relegate you to a child's bedroom or the basement
Nothing is stopping any parent from moving their children and grandchildren in and sharing the space.
You don't seem to understand the economics of home ownership - it can be $1,000,000 or more in value. I really don't know how you picture these parents - up until a certain age they lead very full and vigorous lives.
Otherwise are you planning to force all people above a certain age to give up their homes to some central community organization that will then dole out the seized homes to what basis?
Are they going to pay fair market value for the seized homes?
Again I am just pointing out that there is nothing stopping anyone from giving their child their home and moving out or into the basement.
But to act as if older people are somehow selfish for not giving their children their homes is really entitled. |
I specifically said that the grandparents would NOT lose possession or ownership of their paid-up house where they raised many children. It isn't odd at all to see that process re-enacted again in the same rooms.
The grandparents can be just as vigorous, active and social residing in a smaller bedroom. And they can entertain at home too.
I am not envisioning all this "giving." The parents are still there and they still own the home.
You are right to ask exactly which of their children would occupy the old parents' and children's rooms. That is an issue. I have no answer to that. Circumstances vary. Probably the worst housed and nearest child. But that could be an issue, yes.
But look at the money saved. With this doubling up, money is saved and that could go toward helping those other children, in some way.
The point is not "seizing" anything, but for the grandparents to THINK this way, and OFFER.
It could be PAINFUL to a grandparent to see a married child with two children living in 400 square feet as they contemplate their spacious house with nobody in it.
The grandparents could even keep their master bedroom, and the young parents could live in a guest room. There are usually other bedrooms for the kids. And the basement doesn't have to be unused space either.
Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:35 pm
| amother Denim wrote: | I thought the point of this thread was to blame the older generation for the housing crisis because they don't want to give up their homes?
Look, everyone agrees with you. Housing has become unaffordable everywhere. It's true that it's impossible to buy a home on 2 salaries and that people go into debt just to be able to raise a healthy family. But there are also options other then forcing the older generation out of their homes or asking them to share it, which means giving up most of their space.
The fact that it was easier to buy nice homes 40 years ago does not mean that the oolder generation now has a chiyuv to part from these homes just because their children have decided that they need it more.
And if I might add, it might have been easier to buy then but it doesn't mean they were all able to afford it. They scrimped and saved too! They might have gone into debt then too! |
The point of this thread is it is chaval to have houses that are half empty because they house an elderly couple while young people with little kids have to be in a 2 bedroom.
And no it’s not about the kids owning a house.
It’s about grandkids growing up in subpar conditions.
Do I as a grandparent not care that my grandchildren grow up in a tiny apartment with no backyard?
Is there nothing I can do about it? Is teaching my kids a lesson more important than giving my grandchildren space to grow and thrive?
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amother
Lime
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:50 pm
OP the answer is no, it won’t work.
But you have my full sympathies- I’m guessing your in the uk not Europe like a lot are speculating.
Yes our parents and grandparents could all buy houses- even the kollel people and the school Rebbe’s. And now it’s just unaffordable for majority of people.
Starting new communities unless chassidish hasn’t worked until now because of the infrastructure required. The chassidim make it work because their schooling system requires less. That, I believe, is the major stumbling block for those who want a full chol and Kodesh education in good schools.
Many times new communities have been discussed on the outskirts of London with fair proximity to north west London but it just doesn’t ever get off the ground. And it’s the askonim and wealthy people trying to start it.
Also, to get a new community going in a place with low crime and reasonable house pricing, you need to go far out which then means you lose the infrastructure of the community you are moving from. It’s not like in the US where you drive another twenty minutes (or nearer? Lakewood to Jackson how far is that?) and there is a new community waiting with open arms and still close proximity to schools etc. the difference in pricing so close by will not be worth anyone’s while to move.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 5:12 pm
I don't think some of the American posters understand Europe. It's much more densely populated and the cities are old and people sort of live on top of each other. The Jewish community is also much smaller.
You can't just move to a random area and find a plot of land to build a shul or school on. You may be able to move to an area adjacent to a Jewish area, like Mill Hill East in London which is up and coming but it's still very expensive. You have a million Jews in NY, it's a much bigger pool to build a new community from and much more space to move out to.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 5:45 pm
| amother Olive wrote: | I don't think some of the American posters understand Europe. It's much more densely populated and the cities are old and people sort of live on top of each other. The Jewish community is also much smaller.
You can't just move to a random area and find a plot of land to build a shul or school on. You may be able to move to an area adjacent to a Jewish area, like Mill Hill East in London which is up and coming but it's still very expensive. You have a million Jews in NY, it's a much bigger pool to build a new community from and much more space to move out to. |
Most big communities in the US don't have empty space near the frum communities. People just start moving a few streets beyond the current edge of the community and the community eventually grows that way.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 5:48 pm
| Dolly Welsh wrote: | Maybe the house stays the property of the parents, no "give her the home." And yet, while retaining ownership, the grandparents move to either a guest room or a well decorated and equipped basement.
The young couple would pay most or a lot of the house's maintenance expenses. They wouldn't be boarding there for free. That would free up some of the grandparents' income.
OP is living in 400 square feet right now, with husband and two children. They both work. So they have income. That income could go toward their parents' house's expenses.
They would certainly continue to buy their own food and other needs, as before.
They would be giving their money to their parents, instead of to their present landlord.
"Money for retirement" often means "money for assisted housing or smaller housing." Well if your son-in-law is housing you, by working and paying your house's expenses instead of an apartment's rent, then you aren't worrying about "money for retirement." |
Guest room? Basement?
 
In a house they worked hard to own? If there is enough room then the children ca be in the other bedrooms that are available. If the grandparents are ok with the setup.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 5:52 pm
| amother Foxglove wrote: | | Most big communities in the US don't have empty space near the frum communities. People just start moving a few streets beyond the current edge of the community and the community eventually grows that way. |
Some cities in Europe are set up in a way that you are in between heavily Muslim areas and neo nazies… if you want neither, then it’s upscale
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amother
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Wed, Aug 28 2024, 6:07 pm
| Dolly Welsh wrote: | I specifically said that the grandparents would NOT lose possession or ownership of their paid-up house where they raised many children. It isn't odd at all to see that process re-enacted again in the same rooms.
The grandparents can be just as vigorous, active and social residing in a smaller bedroom. And they can entertain at home too.
I am not envisioning all this "giving." The parents are still there and they still own the home.
You are right to ask exactly which of their children would occupy the old parents' and children's rooms. That is an issue. I have no answer to that. Circumstances vary. Probably the worst housed and nearest child. But that could be an issue, yes.
But look at the money saved. With this doubling up, money is saved and that could go toward helping those other children, in some way.
The point is not "seizing" anything, but for the grandparents to THINK this way, and OFFER.
It could be PAINFUL to a grandparent to see a married child with two children living in 400 square feet as they contemplate their spacious house with nobody in it.
The grandparents could even keep their master bedroom, and the young parents could live in a guest room. There are usually other bedrooms for the kids. And the basement doesn't have to be unused space either. |
To me this sounds like a nightmare as an introverted person. When would I get my space, my quiet, the ability to relax and breathe without kids running around the house,or babies crying, setting my schedule around my own needs etc. It's wonderful when my kids move in on shabbos or YT, but it's wonderful when no one is around too. I can't imagine living with all the chaos that go on in young households 24/7. I did my share, now I want to joy the peace and quiet that comes with the golden years.
And then what's next. Will grandma become the defacto caretaker when parents go to work. Will they be pressured into it because they are anyways around and why should they spend a fortune for babysitters. And will then grandma become the bad guy for saying no? Same with cooking and cleaning and so on. I mean grandma is always around. How can she go out with her friends when her dd is overwhelmed with the kids out of school, work and shopping. How can she sit and read a book when the baby is crying and all the kids just came home from school.
Isnt that's the next logical step for those who feel entitled to take from others?
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My rich friend who lives in the expensive part of Los Angeles bought the house next door. Originally they bought it because they didn't want the home torn down and a huge house built next door.
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