Can the older generation alleviate the housing crises?

↑ Dolly Welsh ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 2:49 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Dolly, you are on to something. The situation is much more acute in communities where NO ONE ever moves out.
And is it okay if I call dibs on writing a story about Jew-steading? Wink

Anybody who wants to can write a story about Jew-steading.

It is in the public domain. No credit to anyone least of all me.

If the paid-up ancestral house is not large, living quarters could be created in the basement for the grandparents. Perhaps with a door cut out of the wall for their own glass-doors entrance. There's plumbing for the laundry already, so maybe their own bathroom. And a little patio poured in concrete for them outside their door. A microwave and a bistro set. Lots of rugs, mirrored armoires, and landscape paintings, and good lighting, so it looks nice.

shabbatiscoming ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:05 pm

amother OP wrote:

Right!! We WANT our grandparents living near us. They are dear to us and we want to pitch in as they age. Speaking as someone who has done a lot for my grandparents and their parents too. It's a family value for us to look after our grandparents. Everyone pitches in. BH BH my family is great in this regard.

But whenver I am there, I can't help but think of those upper floors that are dilapidated and empty.

Changing things around for a very elderly couple is unadvisable as others have mentioned but doing so when the couple is relatively young like 50ish or a little older is more doable. They're young enough to acclimate to new dimensions and they can build their apartment with their new needs iyh in mind.

I know someone who did this very successfully.

Why do you believe couples in their 50s and 60s have any desire to do this? And whos to say they dont still have children of their own at home? I really think your idea is so unattainable and so unrealistic.

amother

↑ Denim ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:26 pm

amother Sapphire wrote:

In some cultures it’s a normal practice to downsize and buy property for children.
My relatives do it, and other people I know.
My own mom downsized and gave me money towards property, because I had moved abroad.
Admittedly they don’t have many children so life stages are pretty straightforward and there is little competition between siblings.
But many people don’t want to pay utilities for a larger home and willingly move to a smaller home.

That is the key word, willingly. Which means no one forced them out of their homes or started a campaign to get them to agree to get out of their homes.

At the end of the day, it's their home. I don't care if OP thinks they don't deserve to live there anymore or never deserved to own it in the first place, it's still theirs. How can you uproot someone just because YOU decided your needs are most important?

Fox ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:29 pm

In America, historically, newly-married couples very frequently lived with one set of parents or the other. Look at sitcoms from the 60s/70s -- one of the situations used to drive the comedy is the young couple and the older couple sharing space.

This was typically done either to allow one or both members of the new couple to complete school, and/or it was a way for the couple to save money for a house. It wasn't until the late 70s/80s that this custom fell away. It gave young couples a huge financial boost, whatever their goals were.

Now search for all the Imamother threads on the topic. Anyone suggesting this is warned about "boundaries" and all sorts of potential dysfunction. "Couples need their own space."

Dividing houses into smaller units is sometimes possible, but not always. And having lots of tiny apartments on the market won't help growing families.

The answer that makes the most sense is for families to share quarters based on compatible lifestyles, convenience, family size, and availability. This, btw, also helps with issues like child care. My mother had far greater flexibility to take prime work assignments because my retired grandmother lived with us.

But this is an answer that a lot of Imamothers don't like.

amother

NeonBlue

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:35 pm

amother Chartreuse wrote:

The irony gets to me sometimes.
Op has a point. I had such thoughts at times.

I was living in a one bedroom apt with 4 kids while next door (and half the block) old people in big houses.

They have a hard time with their steps, while I am in an elevator building which would suit them better.

Maybe if there would be awareness and organizations to gently help them move and sell or rent their house, it could happen. But we have to be aware change is hard for elderly.

I think this is the biggest issue. Taking an aging person out of the environment they lived in for many years can be the beginning of the end (think depression, feeling not needed etc)

Chayalle ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:48 pm

amother Watermelon wrote:

Most ppl in their 50s have no interest in moving out of their house. Many still have children living at home. So this wouldn't exactly work. Also parents would only be able to give their house to 1 of their children, so this won't be a great solution in any case.

I'm in my upper 40's. I only moved to my house a few years ago, and no, I have no intentions of moving out (unless Mashiach comes - then I'll be glad to!) in the next 10 years, to make way for the younger set. Many people save up for years to buy a more spacious home, and the golden years is when they enjoy it, even though their needs are in some ways less and they might not need so much space on a daily basis.

And yeah, I don't see moving all my kids in, so it wouldn't solve much of anything....what they need to do (and are doing) is looking farther afield. I don't love that they probably won't live within a short drive as their families grow IYH, but that's life. My neighborhood is already not affordable for them at all.

amother

↑ Sapphire ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:50 pm

amother Denim wrote:

My point is that OPs idea is not absolutely foreign. It lives and flourishes in other societies.
In those societies people would feel bad for their own kids and grandkids and won’t see them stuffed into a one bedroom, as they look out of their mansion window. It fact, the others would look down on such grandparents and consider them dysfunctional and selfish. Such grandparents would be ashamed, just like modern mommies are ashamed to show up in shul and their kids are in torn casual clothes.

Giving your kids a car and a home is a basic set up for adulthood in such cultures. I believe many Jews are this way too, but not a majority.

↑ Dolly Welsh ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:53 pm

UH there is a lot of talk here about not moving, but moving over.

The grandparents STAY in their house.

They just de-camp to a guest room or basement, and leave the main living area to the young couple with children.

That just means the main areas revert to their original function. Raising kids.

They do NOT have to adjust to a new neighborhood or new friends. They are still in their same house.

I privately think the parents' bedroom should be the smallest bedroom. The larger bedroom, the 'master' bedroom, should be for the kids. If that is practical.

Oh and all food and necessities are delivered. No shopping.

mitzva

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:57 pm

amother OP wrote:

But they didn't! They moved into an existing smaller community and hijacked all their conveniences.

Most of these women were stay at home mums. The men were in kollel and they STILL were able to buy huge houses in their twenties. In a city!!

Their tution was peanuts and was waived for many many large families because of the hashkafah of having many kids.

I wrote my OP because all I want is to know that I can have another kid! I don't need what they have. I am not asking for a study, a playroom, I don't need more than 1-2 bedrooms to fit all my kids iyh, I don't need a big front and back yard, I don't need parking because we don't have a car. I don't need a laundry room, hallway etc. I Just want a kitchen, decent living room and 2-3 bedrooms. I would love a small garden for the kids.

All I want is a healthy family.

I was just suggesting an idea and would like to hear others opinions RESPECTFULLY.

Op I feel your frustration
I bentch you to get what you need.

amother

↑ Foxglove ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:57 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Sorry, I don't think that grandparents should be shoved aside in their own home because they are raising kids currently. How sad.

↑ Dolly Welsh ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 4:08 pm

amother Foxglove wrote:

Sorry, I don't think that grandparents should be shoved aside in their own home because they are raising kids currently. How sad.

Well, they should see the good in the idea. Certainly not be forcibly shoved.

The alternatives are all bad. These are the alternatives:

One, their kids do visit and stay over, have a nice time, and then leave. But there is an awkward feeling in the air.

Two, their kids do eventually just have to move somewhere far, far away. The grandparents then see their grandkids less and less. The grandparents inevitably age, and their grown kids are nowhere nearby. They are left to the mercy of paid helpers, who are not supervised by family members. That can be unpleasant.

The result can be a lonely old age.

But they kept their precious master bedroom with its nice view and ample closets. They didn't have to scrunch into a smaller part of the house. They had their kitchen, bathroom, driveway and back yard to themselves in peace and quiet.

So it's weighing what is better than what.

Times. Have. Changed.

It's no use saying, "Well we managed in our day." These are new days.

And the taxes keep going up too. It might have been convenient to have the young couple paying for that or part of it. Then there is supervising repairmen, which young people can be better at. Then there is security from crime. Two elderly people with no one young in the house are more vulnerable.

So there are some benefits to moving over.

Every inch of the house that could be considered a niche for a bed, a little nest with its own mini fridge, table, bookshelf and coat tree, should be looked at.

amother

RosePink ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 4:14 pm

Many older people do willingly downsize at a certain point in their life when they no longer want the responsibility of a larger home with lots of maintenance. But they typically don’t downsize and give their home to their children because they need the money to ice on. They buy a condo for example and invest the rest to provide retirement funds.

I am not sure how this would free up housing as the home would be sold for fair market value because typically it is a major financial asset for an older person.

If it is in a community with high housing costs, the cost to purchase would be high - unless OP thinks that younger people should be gifted with a home which is unrealistic since most older people are downsizing in order to take advantage of the equity in their home.

Some multi-generational families do live together in some form but typically most people want to be as independent as possible for as long as possible.

People buying a two family home with the grandparents living in one of the apartments is a very classic way of doing this as my grandparents lived in the apartment below in the two family owned by my parents. Worked out well as everyone observed boundaries but were there for companionship and support.

Some older people do move in with kids when they reach the point of not being able to be fully independent but most families try to have something equivalent to the so-called "mother in law" suite so that each family still has privacy and independence with appropriate borders. But this is done typically when there is an actual reason for the grandparent - typically the grandmother to no longer be able to live quite as independently as before.

But in terms of OP having any kind of viable solution, it doesn't work.

And even if unintentional, the original post did kind of have tones of older people having outlived heir usefulness. As many have pointed out, many "older" people are still quite active and enjoy living in a gracious home where they can have overnight guests and feed people at a large table.

Also logistically I don't understand where these people would go - most homes aren't set up so that there is privacy available so the older person would in effect be asked to give up their privacy and comfort and occupy one bedroom and no longer have their own kitchen, living room and possibly bathroom.

amother

↑ Jean ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 4:18 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Honestly, your suggestion sounds like the least pleasant alternative for a healthy independent senior.

↑ Dolly Welsh ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 4:19 pm

amother RosePink wrote:

Many older people do willingly downsize at a certain point in their life when they no longer want the responsibility of a larger home with lots of maintenance.

I am not sure how this would free up housing as the home would be sold for fair market value because typically it is a major financial asset for an older person.

If it is in a community with high housing costs, the cost to purchase would be high - unless OP thinks that younger people should be gifted with a home which is unrealistic since most older people are downsizing in order to take advantage of the equity in their home.

Some multi-generational families do live together in some form but typically most people want to be as independent as possible for as long as possible.

People buying a two family home with the grandparents living in one of the apartments is a very classic way of doing this as my grandparents lived in the apartment below in the two family owned by my parents. Worked out well as everyone observed boundaries but were there for companionship and support.

Some older people do move in with kids when they reach the point of not being able to be fully independent but most families try to have something equivalent to the so-called "mother in law" suite so that each family still has privacy and independence with appropriate borders. But this is done typically when there is an actual reason for the grandparent - typically the grandmother to no longer be able to live quite as independently as before.

But in terms of OP having any kind of viable solution, it doesn't work.

And even if unintentional, the original post did kind of have tones of older people having outlived heir usefulness. As many have pointed out, many "older" people are still quite active and enjoy living in a gracious home where they can have overnight guests and feed people at a large table.

Also logistically I don't understand where these people would go - most homes aren't set up so that there is privacy available so the older person would in effect be asked to give up their privacy and comfort and occupy one bedroom and no longer have their own kitchen, living room and possibly bathroom.

The alternative is to have their grown kids live much, much more cramped and poor than they did, and to fantasize that will be just fine and everybody will be respectful and loving. Well they will be nice, but do you think it will really be completely fine?

And to end up alone. Why did they have kids, to end up alone when old? The grandparents are living in an area the young couple cannot afford, and the young couple will, in time, have to move far, far away. Just have to. HAVE TO. How great is that? It's not.

When does privacy become abandonment?

amother

Ginger

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 4:24 pm

amother Magnolia wrote:

She said that because this is literally communism. The general good is determined by others. Housing relocation was a big part of communist Russia

There are days that I actually understand the appeal of communism. It’s so hard to be a mother of young children juggling so many responsibilities and working so hard and living in such small places while passing huge literally empty houses. Many of these people are moving in with kids for shabbos/ Yom tov already and I definitely get the appeal. Let the young generation focus on raising the kids and then they’ll pay it forward to the next generation…

amother

↑ RosePink ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 4:25 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

The alternative is to have their grown kids live much, much more cramped and poor than they did, and to fantasize that will be just fine and everybody will be respectful and loving.

And to end up alone. Why did they have kids to end up alone when old? The grandparents are living in an area the young couple cannot afford, and the young couple will, in time, have to move far, far away. How great is that? It's not.

When does privacy become abandonment?

Why do you think they are alone?

Until a certain point, most older people lead very full active lives. Many of them enjoy having their children and family members over. They entertain. They enjoy their hobbies - they enjoy the peace they have earned by leading chaotic lives.

They are active members of the community.

They aren't rattling around like Miss Haversham in bleak isolation.

In effect you are asking people to give their children $500,000 to $1,000,000 or more as you are saying it is the right of the children to take over the homes that their parents own with the parent getting nothing in return except a bedroom.

Not to mention that how many families are being squeezed into this one home? Do all the children live together in this home? If not, how do you make it fair in terms of who gets to live there.