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Forum
-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
-> Summer Camps
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amother
Azure
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 Mon, Aug 26 2024, 8:59 pm
I think the way girls dress there should be enough of a reason for camps not to go.
My OOT Yeshivish (? CC so not sure where to place us...) husband is very into that it is in SOME boys best interest to go to a baseball game. For example if an oot boy is super into sports it might be a good idea for his father to spend quality time with him (if he needs that) and bring him to a game. Or watching a game is a better outlet than watching movies if a boy is struggling. But he always says seviva there is not l'chatchila at all so if a boy doesn't have any interest what's the mitzvah to bring them...
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Odelyah
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Mon, Aug 26 2024, 9:01 pm
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OP I agree with you. I assume/hope it was a minor league game--those are much better I think. More low key and family-friendly.
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amother
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Mon, Aug 26 2024, 9:07 pm
| amother Azure wrote: | I think the way girls dress there should be enough of a reason for camps not to go.
My OOT Yeshivish (? CC so not sure where to place us...) husband is very into that it is in SOME boys best interest to go to a baseball game. For example if an oot boy is super into sports it might be a good idea for his father to spend quality time with him *if h needs that) and bring him to a game. Or watching a game is a better outlet than watching movies if a boy is struggling. But he always says seviva there is not l'chatchila at all so if a boy doesn't have any interest what's the mitzvah to bring them... |
This is what I mean. Thanks for saying it so well.
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amother
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Mon, Aug 26 2024, 9:08 pm
| Odelyah wrote: | | OP I agree with you. I assume/hope it was a minor league game--those are much better I think. More low key and family-friendly. |
I have to ask, but I think it was a major league game. In a regular stadium.
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amother
Orchid
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:30 am
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It's baseball. It's pretty harmless. Frum people do go to games. Most people wear some form of sports gear and it's not particularly revealing or at least no more than any public place in the US during the summer. If you have an issue with it, find out when trip day will be and keep him home. But I can think of many more unwholesome activities than this.
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amother
Taupe
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:35 am
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Sorry, you lost me at "but what's the point in having them sit on bleachers and watch a bunch of adult gentiles playing a game?"
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amother
Lemonchiffon
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:44 am
| amother Azure wrote: | I think the way girls dress there should be enough of a reason for camps not to go.
My OOT Yeshivish (? CC so not sure where to place us...) husband is very into that it is in SOME boys best interest to go to a baseball game. For example if an oot boy is super into sports it might be a good idea for his father to spend quality time with him (if he needs that) and bring him to a game. Or watching a game is a better outlet than watching movies if a boy is struggling. But he always says seviva there is not l'chatchila at all so if a boy doesn't have any interest what's the mitzvah to bring them... |
A daytime game especially in this past week is not going to have a full crowd. Different type of crowd than a night game, too. More retired people, few young people. Teens are at school (most public schools have already started) young adults are working.
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amother
Snowdrop
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 3:52 am
| amother Taupe wrote: | | Sorry, you lost me at "but what's the point in having them sit on bleachers and watch a bunch of adult gentiles playing a game?" |
Same here. Would it be ok if the players were Jewish? 🙄
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 4:54 am
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I agree op I don’t understand why a frum camp takes kids. I would not be so happy. It doesn’t fit everyone’s hashkafa and it’s not fair to go to a place that some people don’t want in their lives.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 5:09 am
I think we are becoming an over sheltered culture, but I do hear where you are coming from.
Sports has and will always be a “kosher outlet”- just the actual watching of the game itself. Think of the many rabbanim of yesteryear who watched and played sports.
The issue would be more of the crowd on the bleachers or the commercials in between the show but honestly, there are no places today that are 100% tznius and kosher in the summer. Also, they are sitting in a large group, not intersperse among the crowd.
I could see how this could be an issue for someone very sheltered but I would consider it very low on the scale of in appropriate places.
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amother
Tealblue
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 5:09 am
Boys need something.
If u take everything away from them…
What’s left is stuff they can do secretly/in private..
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 5:28 am
| amother Heather wrote: | | Someone could also say the same thing about an amusement park- why introduce frum kids to the adrenaline rush of a Roller-coaster- but lots of daycamps and sleepaway camps do it. People who follow sports have an appreciation for the game, athletic skill- I think that's more wholesome than a Roller-coaster- but other may disagree. |
This is not a great comparison.
Most kids will go to an amusement park once or twice a year, with their camp and/or chol Hamoed. The roller coaster is a 3 minute ride which they find thrilling (or scary) in the moment, and they come off woozy and nauseous. No one developes an obsession to roller coasters. They age out of it pretty fast.
Watching a professional baseball game is the first door to becoming interested in following the game professionally. There are games all season long. Kids and adults are into stats, players etc., and they don't age out of it.
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amother
Mocha
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 5:28 am
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Lakewood camps would NOT take their kids to a baseball game even minor leagues it’s just not tznius and emphasizing sports. When they go to water parks, amusement parks or indoor fun places they rent them out so no non jews there
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 5:29 am
| amother Tealblue wrote: | Boys need something.
If u take everything away from them…
What’s left is stuff they can do secretly/in private.. |
I agree. But I'm talking about introducing it to very young kids. Not taking anything away from them.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 5:37 am
| amother Amaranthus wrote: | I think we are becoming an over sheltered culture, but I do hear where you are coming from.
Sports has and will always be a “kosher outlet”- just the actual watching of the game itself. Think of the many rabbanim of yesteryear who watched and played sports.
The issue would be more of the crowd on the bleachers or the commercials in between the show but honestly, there are no places today that are 100% tznius and kosher in the summer. Also, they are sitting in a large group, not intersperse among the crowd.
I could see how this could be an issue for someone very sheltered but I would consider it very low on the scale of in appropriate places. |
I'm all for boys playing sports. I'm not so into following professional sports and sports players.
Talking about rabbonim of yesterday, I recall reading a piece by (I think) Rabbi Emmanuel Feldman. He is elderly and living out of the States for many years now.
If I recall correctly, he made a kiddush one year because he described how someone told him that the Yankees (or whatever team he had always rooted for) had won the World series.
He said it was the first time he didn't feel a sense of happiness that his team won. He finally felt that he broke loose from the obsession of it.
I agree that rabbonim of yesteryear (and of today) talk about their childhood interest in sports, but I don't think any of them promote it as being 100%consistent with living a Torahdig lifestyle. It's considered a concession, something we need to allow them , since boys need outlets.
Again, I'm 100% for kids playing sports, getting excercize, athletic skill, etc. Just don't see the value in sitting on bleachers, watching others play, and developing an interest in following professional sports.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 5:42 am
| amother Tealblue wrote: | Boys need something.
If u take everything away from them…
What’s left is stuff they can do secretly/in private.. |
You don’t have to take them as a camp. They can go to so many places, rides, trips to sports places where you play, hiking, biking, roller blading, ice skating, rented out water parks, zip lining, rock climbing, laser tag, go carts… so many great choices. Not going to a ball game is not taking anything at all from them.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 5:43 am
| amother Amaranthus wrote: | I think we are becoming an over sheltered culture, but I do hear where you are coming from.
Sports has and will always be a “kosher outlet”- just the actual watching of the game itself. Think of the many rabbanim of yesteryear who watched and played sports.
The issue would be more of the crowd on the bleachers or the commercials in between the show but honestly, there are no places today that are 100% tznius and kosher in the summer. Also, they are sitting in a large group, not intersperse among the crowd.
I could see how this could be an issue for someone very sheltered but I would consider it very low on the scale of in appropriate places. |
How is it kosher? Playing ball is kosher. Going to a very non Jewish atmosphere is not. They play non Jewish music, you sit in a crowd of non Jews who swear, you idolize non Jews as celebrities… I just don’t consider this kosher at all.
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amother
Amaryllis
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 5:58 am
Watching a ball game and watching tv is not equivalent. A ball game doesn’t involve screens.
Lakewood camps don’t go because Lakewood. There are many things that Lakewood is particularly strict on. That doesn’t make that thing right or wrong.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 11:50 am
I appreciate everyone's responses.
I was thinking about if I should say something to the camp director, but I think I will abstain.
In future, I can keep my kids home on that day, if they are not interested in going to the game.
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DrMom
↓
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 12:02 pm
| amother Bottlebrush wrote: | | How is it kosher? Playing ball is kosher. Going to a very non Jewish atmosphere is not. They play non Jewish music, you sit in a crowd of non Jews who swear, you idolize non Jews as celebrities… I just don’t consider this kosher at all. |
I guess I don't see how this is different from many other camp trips (amusement parks, etc.).
And who cares if the players are not Jewish? Ballgames at minor league parks are usually clean wholesome fun. My goodness.
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