I don't get it; how do people survive?

amother

↑ Darkblue ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 6:19 am

monseymom25 wrote:

Exactly. 300k a year is not middle class.

Ouch. This really hurts. This attitude is WHY we are struggling. Yes, our gross sounds high. But let's do some math - about 30% goes to taxes. Ok, you'll say 200k is also a nice income! Not so much if you are being categorized as a high 300k earner. At 150k we were on jerseycare. We received generous child tax credits every year. Tuition was negotiated. Our kids were on the lunch program, seminary was steeply discounted through FAFSA, etc, etc. Maybe I will open a S/O AMA how is it possible to earn 300K, live simply, and have no money. But your judgement really hurts. If only you would see how we live.

amother

↑ Yellow ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 6:23 am

amother Daisy wrote:

The secular world is having a housing crisis as well. Secular people also want to live best friends and family, and besides, the cheaper areas also dont have as many jobs.

Yes you can live in a trailer park in the Catskills for very little, but your job options are limited to Wal Mart, if you're lucky.

The secular folks are having a crisis too but not on the scale of our community.

As I mentioned earlier, we are dealing with the global economy plus our internal economy. When the global economy goes bad, and we have our internal economic headaches on top of that, it's a recipe for a disaster.

We set up our lives in such a bad way, that we have no breathing room for crises. Our system is set up on clouds and theories and hoping for miracles. It isn't grounded in reality, or in the Torah for that matter. It's a system of social constructs that worked for the 1970s, and there is no surprise that it's failing.

We can sidetrack by trying to point fingers elsewhere, but it only serves to deny reality. I.e. - the housing argument that we have no choice but to crowd together. Yet, we do break the barrier down and move elsewhere when there is no more room. Ergo, it can be done. We just need to continue the move, instead of first overcrowding the new location and only then move outwards. Services and conveniences can be built alongside as communities grow. The internet age has made this much easier as well.

If we look at the current problems with the 1970s mindset, yeah there don't seem to be many solutions. But if we move on with the times, and change the mindset, then there are options.

DrMom ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 6:28 am

lamplighter wrote:

The big costs for frum yidden are housing and tuition. Neither of which we can actually change. A frum person needs to live in a place with a walkable shul and a mikvah at a minimum. Raising kids in the boondocks is just not an option. Neither is public school. In the secular world rich people send to private school, by us it's a basic. In the secular world people move to live in a place where they can afford housing, we can't just pick up and do that, it needs to be a place with a Jewish community and schools for our children. If it has those then the prices are already high.

Just throwing this out there: Housing and tuition costs will be more affordable if family size is smaller.

I know many do not see that as an option, but there are families who limit family size for this reason.

Again, just throwing that out there.

(Obviously that won't help if you already have kids, but it may be something to consider for long-term planning for those in the early stages of marriage.)

amother

Pearl ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 6:37 am

Imo, these conversations always go the exact same every time.
The lower middle class earners (100-200k) families express that they're drowning. No money to save for a down payment.
No money to save for retirement.
Being expected to pay significant tuition.
No or virtually no program help.

And they get lectured about 3500 square foot houses, restaurants, fancy cars, fancy wigs, multiple vacations, simchos
How does that help?

Especially if they live in Lakewood or other "in town" communities.

If I make 120k gross (combined with my husband) and can't afford the 60k tuition for my 7 kids, why is it appropriate to vent about McMansions and Jewelry and Restaurants. What does my neighbors financial realities and choices have to do with me affording life

amother

Peachpuff

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 6:45 am

amother Candycane wrote:

It CAN be if we all move to public en masse

How???? We would have no say in anything and our kids would be exposed to so much garbage. Maybe not everywhere but nyc definitely. The system would also get overwhelmed and not manage. Even now the doe is so overwhelmed in nyc from special education that they often don't have iep meetings which are supposed to be yearly.

amother

Snapdragon ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 6:48 am

amother Candycane wrote:

It CAN be if we all move to public en masse

I’ve always had this in the back of my mind as an option.

Imagine your children just being accepted to school without you needing to beg school administrators and shake in your pants at interviews where they examine your clothes. Imagine our teachers being hired by the public schools to accommodate the new classes they have to add and actually being paid well with good benefits. Imagine not having to pay tuition! And our children would be more open minded and well rounded.

This might make housing prices go higher in some districts and lower in others based on which public school the brand name families or teachers are at. And obviously antisemitism is a concern, along with assimilation and the school teaching LGBTQ garbage and race theory. But maybe those things are worth it just to make some truly evil school administrators lose their power 🤣

amother

↑ Candycane ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 6:56 am

amother Peachpuff wrote:

They’re not exposed to garbage at the elementary level. I know because I work in one.
And that’s 8 years of tuition saved just there.

amother

↑ Pearl

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 6:58 am

amother Candycane wrote:

It CAN be if we all move to public en masse

1) our children will be in coed classes because separating by gender in public school is illegal. Even if everyone sent to public school, my 15 year old daughter would be in the same class, sitting next to the 15 year old boy. Im not ok with that.
2) they WILL be taught all those problematic topics. No way around it.

amother

↑ Candycane

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:04 am

amother Pearl wrote:

I’m not talking about 15 year olds.
I don’t see any problematic subjects where I work.

But of course things won’t be an exact fit for your perfect ideals.. that’s the trade off for free education.
Eta there also might be a work around with separate gender schools these days.. I think there’s a precedent with charter schools

amother

↑ Offwhite ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:19 am

amother OP wrote:

I am really not even talking about the families that go on regular extravagant vacations and buy Lululemon for their toddlers.
I'm referring to regular folks whose chol homoed trip is the park or lake. Prizes are from the dollar store, clothing are from target.
Once in a while go out for takeout or ice cream.
Both parents working; one full time one a little less but decent salaries.
I believe that margin is huge and I wonder how they make it?

We aren't. But I have emuanh in Hashem and do my hishtadlus.

↑ BaltoMom65 ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:24 am

amother Yellow wrote:

I didn't disagree with you about these expenses. But some of these are artificially inflated - especially YT expenses.

And of course there isn't one solution as a quick fix. This needs a multi prong approach. We need to lower expenses while concurrently raising the earning power for people.

For the last many decades we have made yiddishkeit out to be about staying stuck in the 1970s mindset. We have continuously added chumrahs, restrictions, lifestyle expectations and created one very rigid box for us yidden. A lot (not all) of the current problems are because of this. We have made yiddishkeit out to be all about living in a very tight box with this being the only path to yiddishkeit. This has handcuffed the abilities of many people, especially the financial aspect. And at the same, this has caused a limitation of resources which artificially inflates lifestyle expenses. We not only have to deal with the global economy, we have to deal with our internal economy as well.

The Torah isn't limited in any way. It supports so many different lifestyles. We need to stop focusing on locking in an era in time as the measure of yiddishkeit. We should revert to using the Torah as our guide, instead of us limiting the Torah to one path. Our children should have the opportunity to do more, whether it's being doctors or lawyers or artists or whatever appeals to them. We shouldnt be teaching them that in order to be a good yid, you can only do this one path. What we need to teach them is how to incorporate the Torah in every step, in every choice they make.

Yesssss

amother

Tanzanite ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:30 am

We used to be okay and now we’re not. Will have to move somewhere cheaper within the next year, seeing as though we are getting deeper into debt every month. My husband and I both have degrees and don’t vacation, order in food, get manicures, or coffee. We had to cut back drastically on even cheap date nights because babysitting is so expensive. Looking forward to being okay again.

amother

↑ Yellow ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:42 am

amother Cadetblue wrote:

This is very naive thinking.
300k for a frum family is simply not enough.
One who is making 150k may come out ahead with paid health insurance and other benefits….

Herein lies the problem. If our lifestyle is set up as such that 300k is simply not enough, then we are absolutely doomed for failure.

This is essentially saying that one can't really live a Torah lifestyle in our times. And I highly protest that thought. It is we who have messed up. It is we who have created this unsustainable lifestyle. And regardless of what you think is the problem, we can go back to the drawing board and figure out how to reset things. If you truly believe that the Torah was given for all times, it is doable in our times too. We just need to figure that out. And the first step to that is recognizing the needs of the current generation.

amother

NeonGreen ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:44 am

amother Cadetblue wrote:

This is very naive thinking.
300k for a frum family is simply not enough.
One who is making 150k may come out ahead with paid health insurance and other benefits….

This. I make less than a quarter of that but I still understand that 3K with taxes like today insane health insurance costs and a large family paying full tuition is not having it easy at all.

Many of us stay under the poverty limit for a reason. (Not that we have anyway of doubling our income right now anyhow, but we're not aspiring to either.) Both parties struggle.

amother

↑ NeonGreen ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:46 am

amother Yellow wrote:

What lifestyle changes do you suggest? The only thing I can think of us moving way OOT? That comes with it's own set if struggles