I don't get it; how do people survive?

amother

Darkblue ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:05 am

Please don't turn this into a bash lakewood fest; every community has both good and we are so so happy living here.
BUT as middle class (300k pretax) we struggle to keep up with basic norms. No, we don't live in a McMansion. Our house is under 2000sq ft and in desperate need of repairs. No, we don't spend thousands on clothes, cars, vacations... our cars are 15 years old. We don't go on vacation past a few days in the summer. We don't dress to the nines. Our income is swallowed up with taxes, health insurance, thousands in medical expenses, tuition, tuition, tuition, (bH I'm not complaining about that) mortgage (just under 3k), camp, simchos (nothing fancy) etc, etc, etc,. I'm eternally grateful that we scrape by every month... but we have $0 in savings.
My issue is that due to the very generos baalei chessed in our city who offer so much to families in need/rabbeim/younger yungerleit, the bar is raised for all. I am happy that there are discounted clothing/shoes/accessory sales and coupon books for them, but this creates a norm that EVERYONE (not just high income) has multiple new outfits, etc each season. The low income families get, the high income families can afford and the middle income families can't, but must, to be normal. (Not talking high end, and yes I shop on shein as much as I can.) When a gemach in my neighborhood started offering to deliver kugel and cholent for kiddushim I almost cried. I made a kiddush and wasn't planning to serve kugel/cholent, but EVERYONE does now, not just wealthier families, so where does that leave me?
Maybe it's hard for ppl to understand how you can struggle to get by on 300k but honestly, we pay and pay and pay (no subsidies, grants, support) and live super simply.

amother

↑ Offwhite ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:13 am

amother Darkblue wrote:

Its time to seriously reevaluate your finances if you are making 300k and not able to save at all.

amother

↑ Sunflower ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:20 am

monseymom25 wrote:

That was so well said. The only other piece of the puzzle is tuition. Private school is a luxury and people in our communities are sending many children while not making salaries that will allow them to do that.

But what’s the alternative? Public school is not the place for our kids in today’s world.

amother

↑ Yellow ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:21 am

amother Sapphire wrote:

Hard truth is that frum life without the luxuries is in itself very expensive. Kosher food including pesach matza etc. Tuition. More kids. People have been moving out but there are additional expenses to oot living that oftentimes offset part or all of the savings. Many are struggling way before simchas & weddings.

I didn't disagree with you about these expenses. But some of these are artificially inflated - especially YT expenses.

And of course there isn't one solution as a quick fix. This needs a multi prong approach. We need to lower expenses while concurrently raising the earning power for people.

For the last many decades we have made yiddishkeit out to be about staying stuck in the 1970s mindset. We have continuously added chumrahs, restrictions, lifestyle expectations and created one very rigid box for us yidden. A lot (not all) of the current problems are because of this. We have made yiddishkeit out to be all about living in a very tight box with this being the only path to yiddishkeit. This has handcuffed the abilities of many people, especially the financial aspect. And at the same, this has caused a limitation of resources which artificially inflates lifestyle expenses. We not only have to deal with the global economy, we have to deal with our internal economy as well.

The Torah isn't limited in any way. It supports so many different lifestyles. We need to stop focusing on locking in an era in time as the measure of yiddishkeit. We should revert to using the Torah as our guide, instead of us limiting the Torah to one path. Our children should have the opportunity to do more, whether it's being doctors or lawyers or artists or whatever appeals to them. We shouldnt be teaching them that in order to be a good yid, you can only do this one path. What we need to teach them is how to incorporate the Torah in every step, in every choice they make.

amother

↑ Sunflower ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:23 am

amother DarkGreen wrote:

120 combined is pretty low if you’re in NYC metro. You each can make that amount (working full time)

Except in most families 1 parent works part time because our schools are not actually full time.
My husband works full time for 90k, and I work part time (9-3) for 60k. I can't work more hours without hiring a full time housekeeper which would basically negate all savings.

amother

↑ Yellow ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:26 am

amother Steelblue wrote:

Ok. I'm just saying, tuition and childcare for let's say 5-6 kids, plus health insurance, plus food, plus large vehicles, plus basic wardrobe, plus housing- it adds up extremely quickly. WITHOUT extras like fancy meat, takeout, high end simchas, designer clothing and jewelry, travel, home decorating etc etc. I just don't see how you're addressing any of that.

There isn't a quick fix. A lot has to change for things to improve. When change happens, it will trickle down and start impacting a lot of the stuff.

As lifestyle expenses come down, it impacts everything else. If $200k is now a livable wage, then all salaries and bus costs go up to reflect that. That's precisely a reason why tuition has gone up so much.

Housing is our own doing. Instead or continuously moving out and building up communities, we crowd a location until it bursts at it seams. We then do a small move outward and crowd that location (instead of continuing to move outward), until it bursts at it seams, and then do another small move. Rinse and repeat. It is us who is raising the housing costs.

amother

↑ Sunflower

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:29 am

amother Yellow wrote:

Yes. But moving to a new place and laying out the money for a new mikvah, shul and school doesn't come out much cheaper.

amother

Tulip

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:31 am

amother Yellow wrote:

I am a pioneer in a new area. Yet life is not livable. My money mostly goes to tuition and food. Both have gone up so much the last few years. Inflation is hurting everyone.

BaltoMom65 ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:32 am

amother Yellow wrote:

Since you asked - start of rant:

This high standard of living has got to go. Lower the scale of all simchas. Stop with the extravagant gift giving during engagement. Stop the crazy furnishing expenses for chosson kallah. Dressing tznius doesn't mean expensive or brand name clothing. Schools should stop with the costly extra curricular and excess activities. Same goes for camp. Camp should be optional, not something everyone does. Figure out how to celebrate YT without it costing thousands of dollars. Etc.

Then - prepare out kids appropriately for a financial future. The financial tools we currently give them is as if it's still then 1970s. No, you can't anymore easily pick up the lacking skills and jump right into well paying jobs whenever you so decide to. Nor are we living in an era where 2 weeks of works pays your life expenses, so we lost the bandwidth where people have some space to build themselves up. Nor is it feasible for people to go into marriage, without any financial education, and just figure it out later. By the time they figure it out, their expenses are debilitating and they are paying their life backwards instead of forward.

I can go on and on about how what we define now as 'basics' is in reality a wealthy lifestyle anywhere else in the world. You can't sustain a lifestyle where you expect the average family to be among society's top earners, while at the same time limiting their tools to be able to target high paying jobs.

(Please spare me the personal anecdotes how our current setup makes sense just because you know a few people who have made it despite the obstacles. For every one person who made it, I can bring at least 20 who didn't. Society should be geared for the average person to make it, and not just for a small minority.)

End of rant.

YAAAAASSSSSS!!!!! PREACH

amother

↑ Steelblue ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:37 am

amother Yellow wrote:

Living outside of walking distance to a shul and bussing/ driving distance to schools is not possible as a frum person. Many people would be happy to move further out from the existing communities, but it's not feasible for most people to establish schools and shuls (while simultaneously earning six figures..).

amother

Rainbow

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:39 am

amother OP wrote:

Financially?
With a $3000 to $5000 morgage. And by the way, where can you find a normal size house these days with a $3000 morgage?
Food, tuition, insurance. And then add all the extras.
Even with both parents working, they are making $120 combined? It doesn't add up.
How on earth do people survive?

Some people make less and save a lot, and some make a lot and save less. It's all about how Hashem wants it!

amother

↑ OP ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:53 am

I am really not even talking about the families that go on regular extravagant vacations and buy Lululemon for their toddlers.
I'm referring to regular folks whose chol homoed trip is the park or lake. Prizes are from the dollar store, clothing are from target.
Once in a while go out for takeout or ice cream.
Both parents working; one full time one a little less but decent salaries.
I believe that margin is huge and I wonder how they make it?

amother

Vermilion ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 9:01 am

amother Offwhite wrote:

Its time to seriously reevaluate your finances if you are making 300k and not able to save at all.

s/o at that income probably doesnt get tuition discounts and full tuition can be a lot. its unfortunately the great equalizer in terms of finances,. medical expenses can also be a lot. s/o said with insurance her birth cost 12,000. she had a health share in addition to her insurance so didnt end up paying but 12,000 to have a kid is crazy!

lamplighter

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 9:07 am

The big costs for frum yidden are housing and tuition. Neither of which we can actually change. A frum person needs to live in a place with a walkable shul and a mikvah at a minimum. Raising kids in the boondocks is just not an option. Neither is public school. In the secular world rich people send to private school, by us it's a basic. In the secular world people move to live in a place where they can afford housing, we can't just pick up and do that, it needs to be a place with a Jewish community and schools for our children. If it has those then the prices are already high.

amother

Daisy ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 9:08 am

amother Yellow wrote:

Fact is, that middle class income of 150k elsewhere in society generally has the means to make it. So this is mostly limited to our community.

So why is that our community can't? Part of that answer is housing. Why are we continuously crowding in communities to the degree that the housing costs are ridiculously high? Why don't we incorporate the mindset to gradually move outwards to keep costs at bay?

Tuition is something that our communities need to figure out. Private schools is a luxury elsewhere. We obviously need them. But to expect the average family to pay the exorbitant expenses is unrealistic. We need to figure out how to keep costs at bay.

Not true. Housing costs are ridiculously high everywhere. It's not just the frum community. And with larger families... we need larger homes. Also more children = more expenses everywhere. Kosher food is more expensive.

Tuition costs are definitely blowing our budgets once we have more than one or two children. What's the answer then? Where is the money supposed to come from?

amother

↑ Daisy ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 9:11 am

lamplighter wrote:

The secular world is having a housing crisis as well. Secular people also want to live best friends and family, and besides, the cheaper areas also dont have as many jobs.

Yes you can live in a trailer park in the Catskills for very little, but your job options are limited to Wal Mart, if you're lucky.

amother

↑ Daisy ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 9:14 am

amother Offwhite wrote:

Its time to seriously reevaluate your finances if you are making 300k and not able to save at all.

Why don't you help her and break down the numbers so she can see what she is doing wrong?

Keeping in mind that at that income level she is likely paying around 100k in taxes, plus the schools are not giving her breaks.