This weeks double take - cousins club

amother

↑ Poinsettia ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 10:21 pm

amother Cobalt wrote:

Maybe, maybe not, but I as the reader might have a bit of sympathy for Liba, which right now I don't. (I am the poster who had my bunch of boys first, and they were older than the other grandchildren).

I didn't see that anyone made her feel unwelcome, it was just the circumstances that did that. Besides, I don't know what that has to do with her not being interested in dealing with her kids at all. (If there would have been other boys their age there would just have been more fights to break up, so she wouldn't have gained.) Its nobodys fault that she didnt have two perfect little girls.

The other parents also wanted to rest and relax a bit, so did Liba.
I was just noting that deciding not to fight a losing battle during a twice-a-year family event doesn't make someone a permissive parent.

Even if it's "just the circumstances" that made her feel unwelcome, there's no reason she should have to subject her family to such a Shabbat again.

amother

↑ cornflower

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 10:53 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Wow! Commandering is pretty strong term and I certainly never meant for a father to ignore his own responsibilities. Besides, attention is a two way street with me giving attention to my neices and nephews as well....isn't that the point?

The grandparents shep nachas by seeing the family all getting along ( mah tov umah na'im...). Seeing uncles with nephews and aunts with girls is normal.

Yes, I agree, the boys behavior as described was extreme. How their father sat and quietly learned ignoring his sons is beyond me. The aunts could have sent the boys to him on the patio....buy I'm not blaming the Aunts here. The blame is on the parents. In this case, the father was MIA when his wife napped...

But it wasn't a two way street, at all. Nowhere in the story do we see liba pleasantly interacting with her nieces or nephews. Nor do we see her husband or her attempting to parents their children.

I have kids. It's beyond negligent that a mother watches her 10 year old knock down a three year old, on the steps no less!, and not discipline her child. How is that 10 year old raised that he has no feelings of empathy or apology? Something is really really strange.

And again, liba has an 8 year old and a 10 year old. That's an age that kids should absolutely have developed self control, discipline, and some maturity by. She's not overwhelmed with a bunch of unruly toddlers who don't understand and unwittingly might hurt each other.

She only has two elementary aged kids. A box of clics, a helping chart, a few chotchkas they could earn by helping as the "biggest cousins around", some guided positive attention (like liba saying "bubby, do you want to hear what xxx learned from his Rebbe?!? What nachas!!), and preparing them before hand for the situation with empathy and role playing and clear expectations would have gone a long way.

So, yeah, I don't get all the posts about the family stepping in. This is not an overwhelmed kimpetutin with 5 kids under 5 trying desperately to keep it together. It's a husband and wife not doing the minimum.

amother

Dustypink

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 12:42 am

amother cornflower wrote:

You're right on the story Liba felt jealous that her sisters could share babysitting responsibilities. I commented on that already.

My response was to a fantasy situation I described earlier , not what happened in the story.
Remember this is a story.

In my family the cousins aunts and uncles all mesh. I would feel totally comfortable telling my sister from the get go, let's keep the running and ball playing outside and I wouldn't have to cause my sister already would have!!
As well as protecting her neices from her active sons...no question about it.

I also wrote Liba did not prepare and her husband was out to lunch.
Before the next get together the mother has to talk to Liba ground rules. If Liba let's hr boys play ball in the house doesn't mean she can in their rented air b n b....etc.

amother

Celeste

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 1:05 am

I am the oldest of a large family and have two children that are out of the age range of the rest of the cousins. Luckily my oldest is a wonder girl who creates the most wonderful activities for the younger cousins. She is capable, kind and caring beyond her years and my siblings love when she is around because they don't have to worry about their kids. My second is a wonderful and sensitive boy that is not neurotypical. Going away for shabbos takes a lot out of all of us. He knows how to pack the things he needs for sensory integration and we speak about the dynamics that might play out while we are with family. But no amount of preparation can make him a different person. I try very hard to explain why things need to be set up a certain way(Windows without bars must be shut at all times, candles cannot be lit on the low shelf. The urn must be the locking kind.) He might lose control and regret it later but his ball might still land in the salad bowl. Or he might not realize and crash into somebody(of course I will make sure he apologizes and spacial awareness is something we are working on). I shudder to think what kind of judgement we would be facing if both my kids were like my second. Sometimes I sadly realize that my siblings are willing to look the other way and reserve judgement because they are benefiting from my oldest.
Lol, now that I read my post back I think my version would have made a way better double take.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 6:58 am

I don't buy it that Liba's kids don't act like this at home. BS.
The difference is that she and her husband have a permissive household so it doesn't bother them.
Here they were facing the judgement and ire of her siblings.

Not once does she express remorse for her sons actions. Not once does she reprimand them.
I totally get her feelings of being the odd one out. It's not a fun place to be.
But that doesn't excuse your nonchalance over your kids out of control behavior.
I feel like she's playing the victim card waaay too much here.

amother

↑ Seablue

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 7:29 am

amother Poinsettia wrote:

No, I'm Liba (my oldest is ASD and I'm NOT a permissive parent) and I don't think anyone deserves to feel like she did there. She should've stayed home because it was right for her, the rest of the family would've kvetched and been upset but they did that anyways, so she may as well do what makes herself and her family happier and spares them more headaches and suffering.

Sometimes there really isn't much choice. My sister (mother of the 4 yo that had a hard time) really didn't want to come. Her kids are 4 and under and she knew it would just be stressed.

But she knew she couldn't skip without making some relatives very, very disappointed. Too much pressure. A ton of money and effort was already invested in the gathering.

I felt bad for her because it wasn't like she came expecting to enjoy herself and then her kid drove everyone crazy. She didn't expect to enjoy.

Bottom line is avoiding isn't always an option.

ittsamother ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 7:39 am

But sometimes staying home isn't going to make you any happier, being in self-imposed isolation feels very painful and you think about all the others laughing and chatting and you wish you were there too. It would be easier in one way and much harder in the other.

But also, I didn't see any mention of Liba going downstairs during the meal at all. It said the other mothers were taking turns going downstairs to keep an eye on the kids during the meals, why didn't she? It says she wanted to talk with the others, she could have gone downstairs and talked with them on the couch while keeping an eye on her sons.

And her going off to take a nap- that was wrong if her husband was just going to be on the patio, how in the world is he keeping an eye on them in the basement?? She should have been right there in the basement too. What was she even so tired from, you never see her actually disciplining them, or working to keep them occupied other than the rounds of perpetual commotion the night before.

And my biggest pet peeve here is that it was all on the women. Aside from one uncle taking away the ball, you don't see any of the men helping with anything! If not serving and clearing then at least they should have been way more hands-on with the kids so the wives could let go of having to juggle that too.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 7:44 am

mom! wrote:

Disclaimer I didn’t read the whole thread.

All I can say is, if you don’t have boys close in age, you have no idea what life can sometimes be like. I am a fully functional, super on top of the situation mom and when we go away my two boys probably look similar to libas. And both are neurotypical. And no we do not run a permissive household.

Do you let them play ball in the vicinity of the Shabbos seudah table?

Chayalle ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 7:47 am

amother Iris wrote:

Has it struck anyone that Liba is probably dealing with secondary infertility, and being around all those little children and babies might have made things even harder for her?

It doesn't say so in the story. So no reason to assume that.
I always figure a writer puts in the amount of characters in the story that she wants to spend time describing and dealing with. More children would've complicated the story line, so Liba only has two.

I finally read the story last night, and I felt it was well-balanced in the presentation. Some of the sisters ARE a bit overprotective. Liba is a bit more permissive (allowing a ball around mealtime) but at the same time, she IS the one who helped her mother while they all got comfortably settled, and then she gets no break. And she does go take a nap because her husband is in charge...perhaps if some of the other BIL's had followed his example, he would've been more comfortable hanging out where the kids were.

Everyone's pardon if someone already mentioned this.

amother

↑ Daffodil ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 7:47 am

mom! wrote:

I have 6 brothers in a row kh, they do not behave remotely like Liba's boys do. My sister has an all boy family kh, many boys ages 11 and down. They don't behave like that either. Liba's boys seem undisciplined & just put of control & very chutzpah. Yes, boys tend to be more rambunctious than girls. This isn't an excuse for chutzpah & disrespect.

amother

↑ Poinsettia ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 7:55 am

amother Seablue wrote:

What you are describing amounts to what I said earlier: guilt.
Liba got guilt anyways. On the one hand there's guilt for skipping because it ruins the Shabbos for one part of the family to miss. On the other if they attend they ruin it all by being there and they don't even enjoy themselves anyways.

So yes there is definitely an option to skip. She should skip. If they want her there they'll make sure to accommodate her needs and make her comfortable. It's not her fault if relatives invested a lot of time and money and effort in organizing something that doesn't take everyone's needs into account.

Those whose needs were met will attend happily. Those whose needs weren't met - and won't be met - and they will just be judged - don't need to attend. Simple simple.

Plus honestly, if everyone would have a better time without me there and they want me only for the photo op and to be able to say that the whooole family came....then they will be happier if I skip. So I'll save them the trouble of feeling bad and beating around the bush. They can be happy relieved and so can I.

And I'll find people who are on the same wavelength as my family to spend time with. Skipping events that aren't good for us doesn't equal isolation.

↑ mha3484

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 7:55 am

amother Cognac wrote:

I think if you have boys this age especially when they are your oldest you learn to adapt to it. It’s not permissive it’s creating an environment that works for them. You keep meals shorter and include them in divrei torah and conversation, the park becomes your social life. My 8 year old son tells me I have so much energy I cant hold it all in my mind. I have had him run circles on the front yard just to let it out.

I wasnt going to comment again but I feel like a lot of these boys and their parents are so misunderstood and get labeled permissive when its not at all.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 7:59 am

mha3484 wrote:

I have children with ADHD they are overactive and BH a real real handful. I can create the right environment for them at home or try to when I'm away. But I wouldn't allow my kids to act the way Libas kids did. And she expresses zero remorse for their actions. She plays the victim card a whole time.

amother

↑ Daffodil

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 8:00 am

mha3484 wrote:

All this isn't an excuse for the chutzpah, disrespect, and hurting other's that Liba's boys are displaying. That has nothing to do with having too much energy. That is just undisciplined. Rambunctious & wild is understandable, chutzpah, tearing games, hurting little kids.... is inexcusable.
The parents not supervising their kids the entire shabbos & not taking any responsibility for their actions, is inexcusable as well. This attitude has nothing to do with regular boys being boys.

↑ ittsamother ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 8:05 am

mha3484 wrote:

But then where do you see Liba doing any of that? Taking the boys outside, engaging them in more rambunctious play to let out energy? You see one instance of her engaging them in a card game (that game can get fast-paced and energetic but end of day it's still a card game.) Then she tried to engage one in a magazine? And other than that, what? And then she complained the others didn't include her sons? In what? Should they leave their little kids playing alone inside and go outside with the boys to play ball while Liba napped? Cuz the boys didn't want to be included in the little kids' play, that wouldn't have interested or entertained them.

I don't see Liba doing one thing to adapt the environment or situation to her boys. Even from the beginning - she thought of stopping by a park first on the way to let them burn off energy but decided better to get there already and eat supper. Why didn't she leave half an hour earlier to build in time for a park on the way? Or pack more snacks so they wouldn't be starving by the time they got there and need supper right away so they couldn't stop by the park.

Bottom line, she and Dovid are the parents, they should know their kids' needs and plan for it, it really doesn't sound like they did. They expected everyone else to do that for them with no conversation about it, and then got upset when they didn't.

amother

Bergamot ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 8:11 am

mha3484 wrote:

Yes I did not take issue with the wild part. I took issue with the bothering the cousins part. Your son knocked a little girl down the steps don't say oh he startled her! Hes not used to little kids... NO! The kid fell down the steps you say "shloimy careful next time"
Your kid threw a call in someones soup SHLOIMY! A TIME OUT NOW!
AND YOU APOLOGIZE. Someone's kid came up crying that your kid hit her. She's not oh such a girl.. Your kid is a brat get yourself off your behind and take charge of your kids. Why did the other mothers not get to enjoy the meal because they were taking turns babysitting libas kids?