This weeks double take - cousins club

amother

Heather

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 8:15 pm

amother NeonBlue wrote:

How about some of the Uncles offering to go play catch outside with the boys? The feeling I got is each family is very self centered and fake close. If they all truly loved each other as one big family, they would have made it work for everyone.

Signed, someone who’s boys love their uncles, and still call them to shmooze after they are married.

This.
What on earth with not one of the uncles playing with these extremely active boys?!
Uncles are way more effective than parents in situations like this to distract a boy.
I hope this isn’t true.

amother

↑ Babypink

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 8:23 pm

amother DarkCyan wrote:

It’s probably pure fiction
Felt flat and unrealistic
Like hello this ain’t rocket science
Big/older active boys need something to do with men and/or other boys on a long shabbos
No surprise

Overly simplistic story looking to gin up controversy etc

Ding ding ding

This column is always that way.

amother

↑ Diamond

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 8:33 pm

Babypink and darkcyan I'm not sure which planet your on but this is 1000% realistic . Boys left unattended Shabbos afternoon because mom wants to sleep or schmooze. Boys wreck the house, stuff themselves with Shabbos party and soda etc bother the girls. Strait out of any family horror Shabbaton (as they all are )

amother

↑ Blush ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 10:26 pm

amother DarkCyan wrote:

Unrealistic that no one seems to have anticipated or planned for the boys
Not unrealistic that this is what happened
Obviously this is what would happen
Double fake I call it lol

Hello, all these double take stories are written to push all the buttons. They are fictional stories meant to portray real life conflicts. And they are all somewhat exaggerated.
And yet, all of the conflicts are somewhat relatable, even if the story is a bit extreme.

The point of these stories is not just to generate conversation but to get you to think of the other side, contemplate how or why you would act in the situation and hopefully open eyes to be more sympathetic.

I think this writer does a fantastic job, each and every time. Even if I can't always relate to every story, I always learn from it. In my opinion, it is one of the most important columns in the magazine.

amother

↑ Blush ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 10:32 pm

Personally, we had a mini shabbaton this shabbos. 4 families with little kids of all ages and stages. Everyone helped, all the kids played together and the adults bonded together. We didn't have anything like the conflict in the story, so I disgaree with whoever is saying that family shabbatons are always nightmares. That may be true in some families.
If your family has these unhealthy dynamics, some planning has to take place, or maybe stay away. But it isn't true that these types of conflicts exist in all families.

In the mix, we had one child with Downs syndrom, and one child who is similar to Liba's boys. But in both cases, the parents stepped in to smooth out any unruly situation, and it all worked out. BH. It can be done if parents are aware and care enough.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 10:58 pm

amother Blush wrote:

I agree. I enjoy reading the Double Takes and the fam discussion afterwards. And this one too... I think its too easy to throw out the baby with the bathwater and just say if the situation is not ideal I just wont come. There is such a thing called planning. Liba could have prepared her brothers and brothers in laws in advance to play with her sons." Hey Eli, Im so excited for our fam Shabbos, it would be such a great opportunity for my Shimmy and Duvie to connect with you. With all the little girls around, they would appreciate some male bonding. You are such a great role model for them, and you know how kids are. They will be telling all their friends..."
Yes it needs to be communicated in advance, not left to the obvious.
I think many of us have been in this situation.

As stressful as family can be, a little understanding and planning goes a long way.

amother

Seablue ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 11:38 pm

amother Cobalt wrote:

Yes! This part of the story was very weird! Generally an 8 and a 10 year old boy would be the star of the show! As the smaller children are just too young to engage.

I found this story very unrealistic on many different levels.

The kids are well behaved at home but can't behave in someone else's home? It's usually the opposite.

No little kids were acting up (no tantrums, grabbing stuff, etc) only the bigger boys (who are more easily controllable???).

You need to babyproof for babies and toddlers, not for big kids!!! Who should have enough seichel to understand better.

Yes. We just had a family vacation and my 10 yo and 8 yo really had a great time and were lavished with lots of attention all around since they have mature conversations and are easy to entertain.

But I did find that the little girl cousins played nicely. Ages 3.5-6. Very minimal fighting.

The kids that had it the hardest was my 4 yo nephew and my 3 yo dd. He was often bothering the older kids because he felt left out. The ones his age are all girls and had no tolerance for being wild. And they just didnt know what to do with him. He also gets physical fast.

The 3 yo got clingier than ever to me and spent a nice chunk of time crying. Plenty of accidents as well...

amother

cornflower ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 11:46 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

I would not appreciate my sil commandeering my husband away to entertain her sons. Excuse me. We have our own kids, he has a wife, and we're there (hypothetically lol) because we don't see his parents enough and want to give them quality time. She and her husband only have the two kids, right? 8 and 10 are not difficult ages. They aren't toddlers that can't be reasoned with and can't be expected to behave. (Assuming they're neuro typical.)

And yes. I have kids. I have a whole bunch bH, 4 of whom are boys. Two mesivta age, and 4 and 7. I also teach elementary aged boys English in a yeshiva. The behavior described isn't normal and isn't her bils problem. Her husband needs to be doing much more and she needed to have foresight and preparation (both with toys, charts, etc and with talking to her boys beforehand...and I'd venture with general parenting too)

amother

Poinsettia ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 12:16 am

amother OP wrote:

Link to the double take article - https://mishpacha.com/cousins-club/

I’m curious to hear people’s thoughts on if Liba was right and her boys were being normal eight and ten year olds. They seemed more wild than normal and I felt like she should have had some parenting strategies to keep them in line but I only have one girl and she’s young so maybe that’s just what overstimulated elementary school boys are like and it can’t be helped.

My family recently did a Shabbos just like the one described in the article and it was absolutely miserable for me with my one toddler. She was overstimulated and all over the place and I cried at the end of Shabbos from exhaustion. I’m starting to think family Shabbosim like this one are just a bad idea. Parenting kids is so hard in such an overwhelming environment with kids not sleeping well because they’re not at home.

Didn't read the whole thread but Liba shouldn't have come to the Shabbat in the first place. Her kids didn't want to go, she knew it would be a disaster, and it sounds like she would've faced equal criticism if she hadn't gone as she did when she did go. Her family didn't enjoy the trip and it's likely they wouldn't have been missed that much anyways, from the sounds of it. She and her husband could've and should've broken tradition to do what is best for themselves and their kids....and the family get-together be darned.

amother

↑ Poinsettia ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 12:21 am

amother Gardenia wrote:

This was the reason I hated the story.
Liba just sounds so left out and misunderstood in the first place. Like her siblings formed a clique that she was left out of bc of her circumstances.
Sounds like a really lonely place to be.
Can't believe you'd want your sister to stay home Can't Believe It

No, I'm Liba (my oldest is ASD and I'm NOT a permissive parent) and I don't think anyone deserves to feel like she did there. She should've stayed home because it was right for her, the rest of the family would've kvetched and been upset but they did that anyways, so she may as well do what makes herself and her family happier and spares them more headaches and suffering.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 12:29 am

amother cornflower wrote:

I would not appreciate my sil commandeering my husband away to entertain her sons. Excuse me. We have our own kids, he has a wife, and we're there (hypothetically lol) because we don't see his parents enough and want to give them quality time. She and her husband only have the two kids, right? 8 and 10 are not difficult ages. They aren't toddlers that can't be reasoned with and can't be expected to behave. (Assuming their neurological.)

And yes. I have kids. I have a whole bunch bH, 4 of whom are boys. Two mesivta age, and 4 and 7. I also teach elementary aged boys English in a yeshiva. The behavior described isn't normal and isn't her bils problem. Her husband needs to be doing much more and she needed to have foresight and preparation (both with toys, charts, etc and with talking to her boys beforehand...and I'd venture with general parenting too)

Wow! Commandering is pretty strong term and I certainly never meant for a father to ignore his own responsibilities. Besides, attention is a two way street with me giving attention to my neices and nephews as well....isn't that the point?

The grandparents shep nachas by seeing the family all getting along ( mah tov umah na'im...). Seeing uncles with nephews and aunts with girls is normal.

Yes, I agree, the boys behavior as described was extreme. How their father sat and quietly learned ignoring his sons is beyond me. The aunts could have sent the boys to him on the patio....buy I'm not blaming the Aunts here. The blame is on the parents. In this case, the father was MIA when his wife napped...

amother

↑ Cobalt ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 12:50 am

amother Seablue wrote:

Yes exactly! This makes so much more sense. Like I said, this story is unrealistic.

amother

↑ Cobalt ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 12:52 am

amother Poinsettia wrote:

So I was waiting for Liba to explain... her sons have ASD, ADHD or whatever. Something that makes their behavior more understandable. But the author did not mention that so we're assuming these two boys are neurotypical.

amother

↑ Poinsettia ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 1:03 am

amother Cobalt wrote:

1. Families do not become automatically more supportive or understanding when a child gets a diagnosis.
2. She doesn't owe her sisters her child's diagnosis even if he has one.
3. Just because someone looks permissive in an unusual setting doesn't mean they are a permissive parent. There is just a line that you draw where you won't expend more energy that you don't have trying to control a situation that you can't control and that won't repeat itself next week or next month anyways. I don't let kids eat tons of candy before lunch, but at a special family event I don't protest it because it is an unusual circumstance and it's not worth the fight and when we are at home they will eat healthier. Kids understand "different rules for different places." I'm not going to fight a losing battle (because everyone else's kids are eating tons of candy) and ruin the Shabbat atmosphere for something that won't matter or be repeated any time soon. That doesn't make me a permissive parent, it makes me a sane parent.

Truthfully I also understood her kids to be NT, because this isn't the way they are at home. But the bottom line is that it was very clear she and her kids were not really wanted, she was good help for her mother, and it's nice in theory to have all the siblings together for Shabbat, but she wasn't REALLY wanted, she and her family were a blight on the otherwise perfect Shabbat. Her family didn't deserve that attitude and they should've stayed home - same criticism, same guilt, but a much happier Shabbat for themselves.

amother

↑ Cobalt

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 1:11 am

amother Poinsettia wrote:

1. Families do not become automatically more supportive or understanding when a child gets a diagnosis.
2. She doesn't owe her sisters her child's diagnosis even if he has one.

Truthfully I also understood her kids to be NT, because this isn't the way they are at home. But the bottom line is that it was very clear she and her kids were not really wanted, she was good help for her mother, and it's nice in theory to have all the siblings together for Shabbat, but she wasn't REALLY wanted, she and her family were a blight on the otherwise perfect Shabbat. Her family didn't deserve that attitude and they should've stayed home - same criticism, same guilt, but a much happier Shabbat for themselves.

Maybe, maybe not, but I as the reader might have a bit of sympathy for Liba, which right now I don't. (I am the poster who had my bunch of boys first, and they were older than the other grandchildren).

I didn't see that anyone made her feel unwelcome, it was just the circumstances that did that. Besides, I don't know what that has to do with her not being interested in dealing with her kids at all. (If there would have been other boys their age there would just have been more fights to break up, so she wouldn't have gained.) Its nobodys fault that she didnt have two perfect little girls.

amother

Lime

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 1:13 am

amother Seablue wrote:

Yes this. We had the wild boys. Family get togethers usually meant the sweet docile girl cousins who were slightly older and whose parents were blissfully napping expecting me to keep the wild boys away from their games and dolls and whatever else they were busy with. Not a very relaxing scenario either...