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-> Parenting our children
keym
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 Sun, Aug 18 2024, 10:30 am
I read the article, and as usual I felt that everyone was wrong.
Yes, Liba was wrong for her "Boys will be boys" mentality.
But I also related so much to her loneliness and sadness at being isolated from the family dynamics. I have similar. My kids are significantly older than their cousins. (Just mazel) And the cousins are all the same ages as my younger few kids.
My kids always hated, still do getting together with family. When they were 10-12, all their cousins were 5 and under. Chanuka parties, family get-togethers were geared towards the preschool age, and my kids were yelled at for not being "nicer" or "more understanding" of their cousins, not to mention the expectations of them. When you're a mother of a baby, a 2 year old, and a 4 year old, you see your 11 year old niece as practically grown up. You look down at her for demanding sour sticks, for getting upset that the chicken touched the kugel, for not wanting to help with the little ones. You just don't relate to them being kids.
I have it still.
My older ones are 15-18, and the next cousin is 10. We get together and my siblings complain that my kids are pigs who eat nonstop- yes a 17 year old boy is not going to be ok with 1 hotdog for supper.
Or that my kids don't play and schmooze with their cousins enough.
It's incredibly stressful and lonely to deal with a family get-together and everyone has their plans and ideas that work for everyone else, and they override your concerns for your family.
I feel like Liba was overridden when she tried saying what would work for HER family, because everyone else had a system and plan in place that worked for all of them.
And of course the expectation that Liba would take care of a lot of the logistics because "she doesn't have babies".
I mean these 2 boys were acting up and Liba wasn't parenting them effectively. But they also were an afterthought for all the aunts and uncles and grandparents. There was absolutely no attempt at acknowledging them as humans with needs.
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amother
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 11:48 am
| keym wrote: | I read the article, and as usual I felt that everyone was wrong.
Yes, Liba was wrong for her "Boys will be boys" mentality.
But I also related so much to her loneliness and sadness at being isolated from the family dynamics. I have similar. My kids are significantly older than their cousins. (Just mazel) And the cousins are all the same ages as my younger few kids.
My kids always hated, still do getting together with family. When they were 10-12, all their cousins were 5 and under. Chanuka parties, family get-togethers were geared towards the preschool age, and my kids were yelled at for not being "nicer" or "more understanding" of their cousins, not to mention the expectations of them. When you're a mother of a baby, a 2 year old, and a 4 year old, you see your 11 year old niece as practically grown up. You look down at her for demanding sour sticks, for getting upset that the chicken touched the kugel, for not wanting to help with the little ones. You just don't relate to them being kids.
I have it still.
My older ones are 15-18, and the next cousin is 10. We get together and my siblings complain that my kids are pigs who eat nonstop- yes a 17 year old boy is not going to be ok with 1 hotdog for supper.
Or that my kids don't play and schmooze with their cousins enough.
It's incredibly stressful and lonely to deal with a family get-together and everyone has their plans and ideas that work for everyone else, and they override your concerns for your family.
I feel like Liba was overridden when she tried saying what would work for HER family, because everyone else had a system and plan in place that worked for all of them.
And of course the expectation that Liba would take care of a lot of the logistics because "she doesn't have babies".
I mean these 2 boys were acting up and Liba wasn't parenting them effectively. But they also were an afterthought for all the aunts and uncles and grandparents. There was absolutely no attempt at acknowledging them as humans with needs. |
I will ask your a question that you won't like but I feel it needs to be asked. Could it be that aunts and uncles simply aren't that fond of your kids?
What you describe as an 11 year old "demanding sour sticks" wouldn't be viewed with kind eyes by everyone. There is asking and then there is demanding.
An 11 year old who throws a tantrum that the kugel touches something else on the plate is acceptable at the age of five but not an 11 year old. Absolutely not.
Kids who are brought up not to include the younger ones on a steady basis won't be appreciated by uncles and aunts.
This has nothing to do with their age but the lack of basic age appropriate manners and detect eretz.
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amother
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 11:54 am
| keym wrote: | I read the article, and as usual I felt that everyone was wrong.
Yes, Liba was wrong for her "Boys will be boys" mentality.
But I also related so much to her loneliness and sadness at being isolated from the family dynamics. I have similar. My kids are significantly older than their cousins. (Just mazel) And the cousins are all the same ages as my younger few kids.
My kids always hated, still do getting together with family. When they were 10-12, all their cousins were 5 and under. Chanuka parties, family get-togethers were geared towards the preschool age, and my kids were yelled at for not being "nicer" or "more understanding" of their cousins, not to mention the expectations of them. When you're a mother of a baby, a 2 year old, and a 4 year old, you see your 11 year old niece as practically grown up. You look down at her for demanding sour sticks, for getting upset that the chicken touched the kugel, for not wanting to help with the little ones. You just don't relate to them being kids.
I have it still.
My older ones are 15-18, and the next cousin is 10. We get together and my siblings complain that my kids are pigs who eat nonstop- yes a 17 year old boy is not going to be ok with 1 hotdog for supper.
Or that my kids don't play and schmooze with their cousins enough.
It's incredibly stressful and lonely to deal with a family get-together and everyone has their plans and ideas that work for everyone else, and they override your concerns for your family.
I feel like Liba was overridden when she tried saying what would work for HER family, because everyone else had a system and plan in place that worked for all of them.
And of course the expectation that Liba would take care of a lot of the logistics because "she doesn't have babies".
I mean these 2 boys were acting up and Liba wasn't parenting them effectively. But they also were an afterthought for all the aunts and uncles and grandparents. There was absolutely no attempt at acknowledging them as humans with needs. |
I've never heard of adults referring to kids and teens "eating as pigs" unless they have no table manners. In my circles everybody is just pleased if there is a hearty appetite.
How are your kids table manners?
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keym
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 11:59 am
| amother DarkPurple wrote: | I've never heard of adults referring to kids and teens "eating as pigs" unless they have no table manners. In my circles everybody is just pleased if there is a hearty appetite.
How are your kids table manners? |
My kids table manners are just fine.
My kids behaviors are age appropriate.
When we get together with the other side, with cousins around their ages, everything is fine.
My point is expectations.
If your experience with kids is a bunch of toddler (1-5), then the noise, energy level, food amounts, of an 11 year old seem "too much".
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ora_43
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:20 pm
| amother DarkPurple wrote: | I will ask your a question that you won't like but I feel it needs to be asked. Could it be that aunts and uncles simply aren't that fond of your kids?
What you describe as an 11 year old "demanding sour sticks" wouldn't be viewed with kind eyes by everyone. There is asking and then there is demanding.
An 11 year old who throws a tantrum that the kugel touches something else on the plate is acceptable at the age of five but not an 11 year old. Absolutely not.
Kids who are brought up not to include the younger ones on a steady basis won't be appreciated by uncles and aunts.
This has nothing to do with their age but the lack of basic age appropriate manners and detect eretz. |
I think this is the exact too-high standards she's talking about.
Is it acceptable for a kid of any age to demand candy? No, but it's normal. An 11-year-old is still a child. Sometimes they're going to be unreasonable. Not as unreasonable as a 2-year-old - an 11-year-old isn't going to, say, eat all the crackers, then burst into hysterical tears because the cracker bag is empty, or insist that they be allowed to draw on the baby's face - but unreasonable enough to sometimes be rude, or get annoyed about minor stuff like the kugel touching the chicken.
An aunt or uncle who becomes not-fond of an 11-year-old child for occasionally being childish is being unreasonable.
As for including the younger kids, if you're 11 and the younger kids are 2 and 4, 'including' = babysitting. Some kids this age love little kids and are happy to play with them for a while, but some kids really struggle with the way little kids are noisy or gross or disobedient. And both are legitimate at this age.
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keym
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:21 pm
| ora_43 wrote: | I think this is the exact too-high standards she's talking about.
Is it acceptable for a kid of any age to demand candy? No, but it's normal. An 11-year-old is still a child. Sometimes they're going to be unreasonable. Not as unreasonable as a 2-year-old - an 11-year-old isn't going to, say, eat all the crackers, then burst into hysterical tears because the cracker bag is empty, or insist that they be allowed to draw on the baby's face - but unreasonable enough to sometimes be rude, or get annoyed about minor stuff like the kugel touching the chicken.
An aunt or uncle who becomes not-fond of an 11-year-old child for occasionally being childish is being unreasonable.
As for including the younger kids, if you're 11 and the younger kids are 2 and 4, 'including' = babysitting. Some kids this age love little kids and are happy to play with them for a while, but some kids really struggle with the way little kids are noisy or gross or disobedient. And both are legitimate at this age. |
Exactly.
Thank you
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amother
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 1:07 pm
| ora_43 wrote: | I think this is the exact too-high standards she's talking about.
Is it acceptable for a kid of any age to demand candy? No, but it's normal. An 11-year-old is still a child. Sometimes they're going to be unreasonable. Not as unreasonable as a 2-year-old - an 11-year-old isn't going to, say, eat all the crackers, then burst into hysterical tears because the cracker bag is empty, or insist that they be allowed to draw on the baby's face - but unreasonable enough to sometimes be rude, or get annoyed about minor stuff like the kugel touching the chicken.
An aunt or uncle who becomes not-fond of an 11-year-old child for occasionally being childish is being unreasonable.
As for including the younger kids, if you're 11 and the younger kids are 2 and 4, 'including' = babysitting. Some kids this age love little kids and are happy to play with them for a while, but some kids really struggle with the way little kids are noisy or gross or disobedient. And both are legitimate at this age. |
While I agree with yours and keym's individual points, I don't agree with the overall assessment. You're looking at each incident in a vacuum instead of the big picture.
Yes, it's very normal for an 8-10 year old child to have some inappropriate behaviors. One kid may not behave at the seudah, another will run wildly around the house. Another may act inappropriately with food, and another may tease and hurt younger kids. And that's normal, because every child outgrows stuff at his own pace. But having ALL of these behaviors is what is not normal. That is normal of a toddler stage, but not the 8-10 year old stage. An 8-10 year old boy should have outgrown some of the stuff and not have behavioral issues with every interaction. Liba's boys behaved as if they're stuck in the toddlers stage and haven't matured past it.
There could be many reasons for it. Perhaps they are challenging children and the parents are having a difficult time parenting them. Or perhaps they're being raised with the permissive parenting style and are accustomed to walking over everyone. Or perhaps there is a total lack of parenting in the home and these boys never received proper guidance.
But bottom line, if you look at the big picture and combine all incidents, that is not normal for such age boys. Something is off there.
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B'Syata D'Shmya
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 1:21 pm
| my mama wrote: | Her husband told her he was supervising so she took a much needed nap.
Her sisters were being a little unreasonable and could've communicated with her instead of seething with each others and complaining to her only once it got really bad |
No , Not at all. Her husband was going to the patio to learn and said he would be around. Not the same as supervising and both parents knew their boys needed more than simple supervising, they needed hands on parenting, like Friday night with the endless games of Perpetual Commotion.
Sorry, I dont buy Liba's immature attitude. She is the eldest and should know that she got married first, has older kids who dont mesh with little girls and have prepared them better. She knows they are energetic and wilder than their younger cousins.
Complaining about the crystal and houseplants etc isnt productive and even childish. Sad that her sisters have children the same age and jealous that they can share babysitting responsibilities, I get it but you are an adult. This is the situation. Deal.
Yes, she deserves a rest in the afternoon, and her husband should have prioritized watching his boys over learning. Maybe offering to take them on a walk or to a park, or play ball outside... He can catch up learning later. He has sons whose needs need to be taking care of (Libas words). they didnt need to be bored, they needed their parents to keep them occupied in a manner that doesnt disturb others. Dont criticize your siblings because of the snacks the boys took, no one was supervising them....and its not your sisters jobs to monitor their snacks. The Aunts treated them normally, they
I get that she felt attacked and attacked back, but that is really childish and unhelpful. Demanding that the Shabbos be catered to their needs was HER responsibility to begin with.
Sorry Im not on team Liba . I know she needed to nap and her husband needed to learn on the patio. But their first responsibility was their kids...
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amother
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 1:49 pm
| amother DarkPurple wrote: | I will ask your a question that you won't like but I feel it needs to be asked. Could it be that aunts and uncles simply aren't that fond of your kids?
What you describe as an 11 year old "demanding sour sticks" wouldn't be viewed with kind eyes by everyone. There is asking and then there is demanding.
An 11 year old who throws a tantrum that the kugel touches something else on the plate is acceptable at the age of five but not an 11 year old. Absolutely not.
Kids who are brought up not to include the younger ones on a steady basis won't be appreciated by uncles and aunts.
This has nothing to do with their age but the lack of basic age appropriate manners and detect eretz. | And this is why I straight up refuse to go to a lot of family things. The expectations people have of my kids are just too high. I didn’t read the mishpacha so I’m not voicing an opinion on that. But to have zero recognition of how hard these shabbosim are on young 11 year olds and to expect them to “include the younger ones on a steady basis” and to go without sour sticks? No thanks. I’ll stay home and let my kids be kids.
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amother
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 2:09 pm
| amother Babypink wrote: | | And this is why I straight up refuse to go to a lot of family things. The expectations people have of my kids are just too high. I didn’t read the mishpacha so I’m not voicing an opinion on that. But to have zero recognition of how hard these shabbosim are on young 11 year olds and to expect them to “include the younger ones on a steady basis” and to go without sour sticks? No thanks. I’ll stay home and let my kids be kids. |
While the kids were in an in unideal situation the attitude of Liba and her husband was Wrong.
And yes Liba should have rather not attended than coming so woefully unprepared.
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amother
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 2:37 pm
Here's what I wonder about.
Does Liba have complaints from her neighbors, her boys' teachers, and other people who are involved in her kids lives? In other words, are her boys normal boys, and they are being unfairly treated by family members who don't know what's normal? Or are the objectively difficult kids?
If they are objectively difficult, liba and her husband were neglectful and apathetic.
If they are objectively normal, the parents still should have been more proactive in keeping them engaged. This was NOT the job of the aunts.
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amother
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 2:40 pm
| amother Babypink wrote: | | And this is why I straight up refuse to go to a lot of family things. The expectations people have of my kids are just too high. I didn’t read the mishpacha so I’m not voicing an opinion on that. But to have zero recognition of how hard these shabbosim are on young 11 year olds and to expect them to “include the younger ones on a steady basis” and to go without sour sticks? No thanks. I’ll stay home and let my kids be kids. |
Another voice of reason. The heck! Just skip family and find friends your compatible with. I understand parents get nachas from family get togethers but it just ends up with fights
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amother
NeonBlue
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 2:50 pm
How about some of the Uncles offering to go play catch outside with the boys? The feeling I got is each family is very self centered and fake close. If they all truly loved each other as one big family, they would have made it work for everyone.
Signed, someone who’s boys love their uncles, and still call them to shmooze after they are married.
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LittleDucky
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 2:57 pm
I am on team: everyone is at fault. Like most of these types of stories- advanced planning and communication always helps.
No one included the boys. No one tried to play a game (besides mom). No one came up with any positive activities- all the boys heard was "no".
Why didn't anyone (uncles, grandparents, parents etc) try to include them at the meal?
Why was Liba in charge of all sorts of preparation, planning etc for meals because she had no babies but then critiqued for also not watching her kids at the same time?
Liba also should have brought games, found activities, spoke up ahead of time about her needs and say that everyone needs to contribute equally.
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amother
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 2:59 pm
| amother Cognac wrote: | While the kids were in an in unideal situation the attitude of Liba and her husband was Wrong.
And yes Liba should have rather not attended than coming so woefully unprepared. |
I honestly don't get it. You would rather your sister not come than put up with less than ideal family dynamics?
That would never even occur to me.
I mean obviously fix the problem (or try to)
But I guess I'm blessed with family that I love and enjoy being around.
I give you a bracha that you should one day have family like that!
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mha3484
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 3:09 pm
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My approach with my high energy kids is to be outside as much as we can. So if it was important for me to go to the shabbos Id take something to read and a chair and sit out with them as much as they need. That solves the wild issue but you end up spending most of a family shabbos alone in the backyard or helping with the meals so what do you get out of being there? Her sisters don't seem the type to join her. So maybe she is better off at home.
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amother
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 3:11 pm
| LittleDucky wrote: |
Why didn't anyone (uncles, grandparents, parents etc) try to include them at the meal? . |
Because it's the parents job to seat their children at the meal. Only then can others engage with them.
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amother
Crocus
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 5:23 pm
Liba was giving too many excuses for her boys. I feel like if she did the exact same thing, telling them off every now and again like she did but didn’t also excuse them all the time, it might come across as more sincere and effortful.
Another thing is that with having kids that age, most parents sleep on Shabbos and she probably didn’t think to do anything differently than usual, even if it was annoying for the siblings in law. Not that it worked out this time, but I can see why she didn’t think it through.
I am a mom of girls, and I see why the siblings in law were frustrated, but I don’t think Liba was so wrong either.
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amother
Olive
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 7:30 pm
| amother Obsidian wrote: | | Because it's the parents job to seat their children at the meal. Only then can others engage with them. |
Yes, the parents had to do more. It is their responsibility but at the same time- there was ZERO discussion of what all those fathers were doing besides shul, relaxing etc. They all could have helped. The men could have helped their wives with the babies/toddlers so the wives could help with prep, meal stuff etc. The men are at the table and any one of them could have asked parsha questions. Family is supposed to help each other out.
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amother
Azure
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Sun, Aug 18 2024, 7:45 pm
As far as I could tell Liba made one mistake: going. This is only nice in fantasy land. In real life most families have a similar nightmare. Ones husband is more helpful/successful/wealthy/talmid chochom
Kids who are wild or cuter or whatever. It never works
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