My view on OTD kids

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My view on OTD kids

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pnimi ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 9:58 pm

I think it's pretty unethical to be inviting an open discussion to judge the nature and families of people who went 'OTD'.

If you are not the mother seeking advice in how to support your child, please back off.

↑ bgr8ful ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 9:58 pm

to add to my previous post, I think ppl do this with a lot of unfortunate events they see happening around them.

someone getting divorced? must be because of a,b, or c.
someone died? they weren't doing a,b or c.
someone's child is otd? for sure because of a,b or c.

its scary to recognize that we have no control over a lot of things in our lives. we try to find the cause for all these horrible, scary things in order to convince ourselves that we have some modicum of control, and that if we can explain the cause and then take preventative measures, these nisyonos wont happen to us.

at some point you gotta recognize that you can do everything right and it still wont always prevent bad things from happening to you.

and thats where G-d and bitachon come into the picture.

amother

↑ Banana

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 9:59 pm

amother Magnolia wrote:

OP,
I don’t think I agree with much of what you said, but one thing stands out to me. “BT's should not overly expose their kids to non-frum relatives ” if you are happy and confident in who you are, and are raising your kids with Ahavat Hashem and seeing the beauty of Torah Judaism, you should not need to hid from the non frum relatives.

Oh I missed that comment. I think it's a disgusting idea. So let's say a BTs parents aren't frum, is op suggesting limiting their interaction with their grandkids???
That would be horrible and so so wrong. If anything I reckon it would create a negative association with frumkeit. Can you imagine kids getting older and realising you kept them from family members for not being frum that's enough to turn them off yidishkeit in itself

↑ pnimi

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:03 pm

Hudis1998 wrote:

This is just my personal take, based off a personal story. I understand not everyone is the same, and I'm not judging anyone who belongs to the first category. I just think that anyone who is a proud Jew who likes Klal Yisroel and Eretz Yisroel, and is raised with positivity will never end up in the 2nd category

You have no idea. We all try our best but there is really no way to ensure our children will end up in any particular way that we want them to. I would feel really awful for any mother of a struggling child to have to read this

amother

Begonia ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:08 pm

Hudis1998 wrote:

Ok this might be controversial but I have to say it anyways. I have an OTD cousin that I used to be very close with, and I'm still heartbroken to this day that he went OTD. I've been fascinated with the concept, and the reasons people go off. I have come out with a conclusion, and am ready to have an honest debate about it. Let's treat each other with respect, you don't have to agree with me but please let me know why you agree/disagree with real arguments. We're all frum ppl on this site, so I assume that we will obviously follow certain baselines (like that we as Jews have to follow the Torah).

I came out that OTD people can be split into two categories.

1. The first is the rebellious teenager, who is interested in the other gender, drinking, smoking and social media. This happens more to boys, but girls also are susceptible and could happen for a number of reasons, like being raised too strict or feeling like they want to shove it in their parents' faces. BH most of these people come back after a year or more, having understood the emptiness of non frum life. Some of the boys go to Waterbury for a while, they might even go to the IDF and realize that a Jew is a Jew no matter what. The outside world will never totally accept us, and we need to stick together and help each other out. They realize that Hashem loves us, and these kids often come back even more inspired than they were before they went off. They might have had some questions about yiddishkeit at some point but never actually delved so deep into that, and they understand that we have to look at the bigger picture instead of going off because someone found 1 particular medrash that they weren't happy with. The main reason the people in this category went off is because of their tayvos.

2. The second category is a whole different story. These people (unfortunately like my cousin) are completely off, and do not want to have anything to do with Jews or yiddishkeit. These people went off because they stopped believing RL, and think that the non-Jewish world is much much better. They might even start to believe in certain crazy parts of the secular world like transgender propaganda, or other liberal stuff. They cannot comprehend why a Jew should marry a Jew and many of them marry out RL.

Unfortunately, many of these people were never shown the true beauty of yiddishkeit and were raised in messed up houses. My uncle raised his kids well but my aunt always bashes "the system" and I think that's one of the main reason why my cousin went off, because of the vibe of negativity always being a major element of their Shabbos table conversations. My aunt is a BT and also exposes her kids to all her non frum family which I think had an impact on my cousin. Like they second he said he does not want to keep Shabbos anymore his grandparents invited him and even sent him on a non-Jewish camp RL where he was eating treif and being mechalel Shabbos

My take on the whole thing: raise kids positively, never bash the community you're in and never speak about the system as "them" or "frum people" as if you are not part of the tzibur (like my aunt did). Also, BT's should not overly expose their kids to non-frum relatives as this can be detrimental to a person's yiddishkeit. Be proud of who you are, there is no reason that we should have to stay in touch with them unless they respect our way of life, without any type of criticism or negativity.

If raised with positivity and a proud Jewish identity, any kid that chas v'shalom runs into any issues will be in the 1st category and not the 2nd.

As a mother of an OTD child, I can have numerous relatives writing up reasons why my child chose a different path. But they probably will all be wrong. Whenever there's a "story", people tend to come up with 'reasons' for why it happened.

The REAL REASON why my child is struggling, is not a one sentence answer. I can give some reasons, my child can add another few and Hashem knows the rest. My child isn't OTD, because this term implies that there is only one Derech in avodas Hashem. He's on his own derech. He's a KIP=Kid in Pain.

Don't view those children as rebellious, even if their exterior and language make it seem that way. They don't drink and party for fun, they drink to numb their pain away...

And I don't think that anyone means any harm, and she shouldn't be bashed for posting her question. But you should know that your assumptions are just that, "assumptions". If you want to get educated, start by listening to Rabbi Russel about struggling children. They do not fit into 2 categories.

And if we're already on this topic, please treat those children kindly. They need love, warmth and acceptance.

↑ Hudis1998 ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:09 pm

amother Bellflower wrote:

And some people really cant avoid their non frum family. I am a child of bts and grew up with lots of not frum relatives... it only made us stronger.

Wow that's amazing that it made you stronger. How could people not avoid non frum relatives though? Like there's no where that says you HAVE to keep in close contact with them, it's a choice people make, not a given fact

amother

Zinnia

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:11 pm

giftedmom wrote:

I recently read a great article in one of the magazines from someone who works with secular and otd teens and young adults. He said kids don’t go otd because of desire, but because of lack of desire. Because they give up on their dreams. It really resonated.

I read that article in the Binah. Really struck a chord

amother

↑ Begonia ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:11 pm

Adding to my previous post:

Nothing about this topic in particular. But the one that posted her question doesn't need to be bashed. It's become one of the normal things on this site to jump on people and hit them over the head. Please be kind.

Thank you.

amother

Dustypink

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:13 pm

I think people have this mindset that frum life is the best. Why would somebody leave? It’s because we as a group are very not accepting of people who are different even a little different. We’re a very rigid people. Our schools are selective and can be downright mean for no reason. Frum people stick together and are afraid to get to know anyone who is not exactly like them. Many people get hurt , frustrated with it, and feel that they don’t have a place. That’s the main reason. It’s feeling like you don’t have a place, you don’t belong , and whatever you do it’s not good enough.

↑ Hudis1998 ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:13 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

I think you’re oversimplifying things.

Humans make up stories in order to understand the world around them. I think you took a few things you saw in your cousin’s life and wove a story together that made sense to you. While this is a natural thing to do, I think it’s important to realize that we never know the details or motivations behind someone else’s decisions. Even if your cousin told you all this, it’s unlikely to be the whole story and possible that it is entirely untrue.

There are more than two categories of people who leave Judaism. It’s not all about physical desire in the teenage categories. That can be a factor, but rebellion is not about sx or alcohol or drugs. It’s often about parents, but certainly not always. Humans are complex.

As for your second category, yes, some people need to be shown the beauty of Judaism, but that’s not what creates belief in Gd. If a home is dysfunctional, children can find beauty elsewhere and latch on to it. Many children believe in Gd because He is so present in their lives. Some children have questions that are complex or unusual and are treated like lunatics at home. Some just can’t make sense of religion no matter what is modeled for them. There are plenty of other categories.

When I was a kid, we were told that those people were “just angry” as if that could be shrugged off. As if this was a deficiency on their part. Sometimes the community mistreats people and the anger is justified. If we never talk about it, we lose more people.

If a child is mistreated in Yeshiva, maybe in multiple schools, for being “out of the box,” should the parents never tell the kid that the schools are wrong for the way they treated him? It seems to me that not acknowledging the wrong in this situation would be a way to shove the kid OTD.

As for non-frum relatives, I think maintaining close relationships is important. Kids need to see different ways of life and understand how to be respectful. Unless the family has no boundaries and tries to destroy your religious lifestyle, you don’t take family away from kids. Your children will not leave Judaism just because cousin joe gets to eat at McDonald’s.

If we want our kids to stay frum, we have to raise our kids right. That doesn’t mean always loving their schools or ignoring community issues. It means creating an atmosphere that allows for the best communication with our kids. It means hearing their concerns as they grow, tailoring their upbringings to their individual needs and personalities, and making sure that they are able to come to us with ALL their questions. It means being honest with them. None of this is a guarantee that they’ll remain frum, but it should help point them in the right direction.

What really bothers me is that people tie belief in G-d to being happy and successful. I know many non jews from my work, most of them are religious xtians and 2 muslims. I asked them about it and no one ever said they'd give up faith if they were in troubled situations. I just can't understand why it would be an excuse to give up emunah, if someone has a troubled life. Yes, it might not be easy and they might stop keeping halacha to the fullest extent but why would someone give up faith? Unless that faith was weak to begin with. If a non jew can do it, I'm sure any of us can...after all we are called maaminim bnei maaminim...

amother

Jasmine ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:15 pm

Hudis1998 wrote:

Why SHOULD we avoid them? Do you only do what you HAVE to do in life? Maybe we WANT to keep in touch? Maybe there is still a mitzva of kibud av?

I am a proud FFB daughter of a BT mom who is extremely close to both my grandparents, aunts, cousins and my mother's cousins. They range from MO to drive to shul on YK. bH I and all my siblings love them closely, are in close contact and are all frum.

I literally see no connection.

The only possibility is that if you bring your kids up with "look that's where I come from and it's so much better than your life" they may have a hankering to try it. But why would you do that?

↑ Hudis1998 ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:16 pm

amother Banana wrote:

Why is it disgusting? It's a means of self preservation. Imagine someone had an uncle that was a classic liberal pro lgbt freie american Jew, why would you want them near your kid? Or a grandparent that openly says that they are atheists, why on earth would you jeopardize your kids' ruchniyus? No where in halacha or American law does it say you HAVE to keep a connection with your family if they are leading you astray

amother

↑ Topaz

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:17 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

It's not called "bashing" to let them know their post is distasteful !
I don't think op is a horrible person but I do think it was in bad taste to discuss otd kids.
I stand by my previous post.

amother

DarkGreen

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:18 pm

Sorry but you are wrong on so many levels.
As someone who works with OTD individuals who have fallen into drugs, alcohol, and other "unsavory things" - people are so much more nuanced.
You forgot to even touch upon the whole trauma and mental health aspects. Many kids from good homes go OTD. But they went through trauma or had mental health issues. Staying away from non frum people, having a happy home with ahavas Hashem etc doesn't stop molestation, bullying, being mugged, abuse, or trauma such as terrorism, crime, war... PTSD can cause all sorts of behaviors.
Please Remember that some people have inborn depression, ADHD, anxiety, bipolar disorder... home life can't stop that. Some is biological. If they don't get the help they need, they seek it elsewhere. Sometimes that doesn't make them live lives compatible with Torah such as the underworld of drugs.

Look at learning disabilities and differences... Many times kids don't feel like they fit in. If everyone learns in BM and kollel and "bums go to work"- well, what do you think about how that makes them feel and appreciate yiddiskeit? Same if everyone goes off to college and has stature in the frum world and you can't pass a community college course or even graduate high school? It isn't just from the home- it's the whole community.

Then there are those that are deep thinkers and teachers can't deal with them or their questions. So no one answers them and they look elsewhere. Teachers and Rebbes who say "next kid/ question?" And "you can't ask that, what are you an Oived Avoda Zara?"

Life is so much more complex than you say. You should look at each kid of yours differently. Love them, try to help them the best you can, don't be afraid to do what is "past nisht" or "just not done in our world", and help them find their true selves.
And don't judge someone else or their kids. Not every OTD person falls into the above categories- this is what I see from my small office. I know the world is more nuanced than this and we just have to help however we can.

- would use my username but my job is pretty unique

amother

Lilac

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:18 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

As a mother of an OTD child, I can have numerous relatives writing up reasons why my child chose a different path. But they probably will all be wrong. Whenever there's a "story", people tend to come up with 'reasons' for why it happened.

The REAL REASON why my child is struggling, is not a one sentence answer. I can give some reasons, my child can add another few and Hashem knows the rest. My child isn't OTD, because this term implies that there is only one Derech in avodas Hashem. He's on his own derech. He's a KIP=Kid in Pain.

Don't view those children as rebellious, even if their exterior and language make it seem that way. They don't drink and party for fun, they drink to numb their pain away...

And I don't think that anyone means any harm, and she shouldn't be bashed for posting her question. But you should know that your assumptions or just that, "assumptions". If you want to get educated, start by listening to Rabbi Russel about struggling children. They do not fit into 2 categories.

And if we're already on this topic, please treat those children kindly. They need love, warmth and acceptance.

I love your whole post, but the bolded hits home. My child is not on my derech, he is on his own derech. There is a reason why each of my kids is in a different school. Batya Ruddell wrote a great series in one of the magazines, which was turned into a book. It’s called On Their Derech. I didn’t read it in the magazine, but I do own the book. And I second Rabbi Russel. He’s great.

↑ Hudis1998 ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:19 pm

amother Jasmine wrote:

that's great. MO people are perfectly fine, and even if ppl drive to shul on YK it shows they have an inner connection with Judaism and are proud Jews. I'm talking about people who are just completely assimilated, happen to be Jewish but are self hating Jews, my aunt's relatives (who she is close to) are like that, one of them is even a college pro palestine activist. It's disgusting that she continues to have a connection with him IMHO and it really influenced my cousin

DrMom

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:21 pm

A new poster possibly born in 1998...

OP sounds like someone tapping imamorher as a source of primary research, trying to rile up conversation to get people to share their views so she can better flesh out her master's thesis.

I will not participate in this thread.

Last edited by DrMom on Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Hudis1998 ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:21 pm

amother DarkGreen wrote:

A rebbi is supposed to teach kids gemara, chumash or what ever they are learning. Not every rebbi is a philosopher and ready for kids' deep questions, and they should send them to those who are (gedolim and certain very smart rebbeim and rabbis)

↑ Hudis1998 ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:22 pm

DrMom wrote:

No personal attacks please...I don't resort to that and neither should anyone

↑ Hudis1998

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 10:24 pm

Kiwi13 wrote:

It’s a much more nuanced situation than you present in your OP. People are complicated. Life is complicated.

Lack of belonging, or struggling with things that place you outside the norm of frum life. Or needing help that can only be found outside the frum world.

Feeling hurt, let down, or betrayed by people who are supposed to represent God in this world.

Negative associations between striving to perfect oneself spiritually and coinciding trauma, illness, or loss (whether or not they had anything to do with each other logically).

Having ambition or talent with no clear acceptable expression in the frum world, which can be an unbelievably intense struggle of identity.

Lacking proper mentorship and acceptance.

The list goes on and on and on. Most will not fall neatly into a single category.

A rebbi in 6th grade is NOT G-d. It's another big reason kids get confused, they need to be taught that. Gedolim of course know things better, but your average 6th grade rebbi is not reb Chaim Kanievsky...

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