My view on OTD kids

Hudis1998 ↓

Sat, Aug 17 2024, 11:58 pm

Ok this might be controversial but I have to say it anyways. I have an OTD cousin that I used to be very close with, and I'm still heartbroken to this day that he went OTD. I've been fascinated with the concept, and the reasons people go off. I have come out with a conclusion, and am ready to have an honest debate about it. Let's treat each other with respect, you don't have to agree with me but please let me know why you agree/disagree with real arguments. We're all frum ppl on this site, so I assume that we will obviously follow certain baselines (like that we as Jews have to follow the Torah).

I came out that OTD people can be split into two categories.

1. The first is the rebellious teenager, who is interested in the other gender, drinking, smoking and social media. This happens more to boys, but girls also are susceptible and could happen for a number of reasons, like being raised too strict or feeling like they want to shove it in their parents' faces. BH most of these people come back after a year or more, having understood the emptiness of non frum life. Some of the boys go to Waterbury for a while, they might even go to the IDF and realize that a Jew is a Jew no matter what. The outside world will never totally accept us, and we need to stick together and help each other out. They realize that Hashem loves us, and these kids often come back even more inspired than they were before they went off. They might have had some questions about yiddishkeit at some point but never actually delved so deep into that, and they understand that we have to look at the bigger picture instead of going off because someone found 1 particular medrash that they weren't happy with. The main reason the people in this category went off is because of their tayvos.

2. The second category is a whole different story. These people (unfortunately like my cousin) are completely off, and do not want to have anything to do with Jews or yiddishkeit. These people went off because they stopped believing RL, and think that the non-Jewish world is much much better. They might even start to believe in certain crazy parts of the secular world like transgender propaganda, or other liberal stuff. They cannot comprehend why a Jew should marry a Jew and many of them marry out RL.

Unfortunately, many of these people were never shown the true beauty of yiddishkeit and were raised in messed up houses. My uncle raised his kids well but my aunt always bashes "the system" and I think that's one of the main reason why my cousin went off, because of the vibe of negativity always being a major element of their Shabbos table conversations. My aunt is a BT and also exposes her kids to all her non frum family which I think had an impact on my cousin. Like they second he said he does not want to keep Shabbos anymore his grandparents invited him and even sent him on a non-Jewish camp RL where he was eating treif and being mechalel Shabbos

My take on the whole thing: raise kids positively, never bash the community you're in and never speak about the system as "them" or "frum people" as if you are not part of the tzibur (like my aunt did). Also, BT's should not overly expose their kids to non-frum relatives as this can be detrimental to a person's yiddishkeit. Be proud of who you are, there is no reason that we should have to stay in touch with them unless they respect our way of life, without any type of criticism or negativity.

If raised with positivity and a proud Jewish identity, any kid that chas v'shalom runs into any issues will be in the 1st category and not the 2nd.

Peersupport ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:00 am

That's a pretty narrow view.

People are complex.
There are many reasons people take different paths.

↑ Hudis1998 ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:06 am

Peersupport wrote:

That's a pretty narrow view.

People are complex.
There are many reasons people take different paths.

This is just my personal take, based off a personal story. I understand not everyone is the same, and I'm not judging anyone who belongs to the first category. I just think that anyone who is a proud Jew who likes Klal Yisroel and Eretz Yisroel, and is raised with positivity will never end up in the 2nd category

gdgirl

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:08 am

there are many who went off due to learning disabilities resulting in extreme frustration or trauma like molestation..

↑ Peersupport

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:11 am

Hudis1998 wrote:

There are so much more than 2 categories though.

We are used to labeling people in a box, but the real world doesn't work that way.

bgr8ful ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:11 am

this is a pretty shallow take on the complexities that make up every person and the things that influence the choices they make throughout their life.

amother

Bellflower

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:14 am

And some people really cant avoid their non frum family. I am a child of bts and grew up with lots of not frum relatives... it only made us stronger.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:17 am

What about kids like my DD, she has a funky creative side and just had no patience for school. She’s a respectful kid, not rebellious or angry B”H but just enjoys hanging out with kids of both genders and going to parties, etc. We have no complaints about “the system” and never did. It worked for all of our kids, including her until she felt too restricted by it. I don’t think she fits into any of the two categories.

giftedmom ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:21 am

You must be young and new to this site

listenhere

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:24 am

It seems like you are trying to control something that isn’t always in our control.

We all try our best.

There are basic do’s and don’t’s, but each situation is complex.

You should learn compassion and understanding from your cousin’s experience instead of creating this diagnosis and prevention guide.

amother

Burntblack

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:25 am

I have a child who went OTD for a few years and I got to know many other parents of OTD kids. I would say that many if not most go off because they were hurt in some way.

I agree with the other posters who wrote that you're two boxes are much too narrow.

↑ giftedmom

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:29 am

I recently read a great article in one of the magazines from someone who works with secular and otd teens and young adults. He said kids don’t go otd because of desire, but because of lack of desire. Because they give up on their dreams. It really resonated.

↑ bgr8ful ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:32 am

giftedmom wrote:

You must be young and new to this site

looks like she joined a week ago so you aint wrong on at least 1 of those things.

mummiedearest

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:33 am

I think you’re oversimplifying things.

Humans make up stories in order to understand the world around them. I think you took a few things you saw in your cousin’s life and wove a story together that made sense to you. While this is a natural thing to do, I think it’s important to realize that we never know the details or motivations behind someone else’s decisions. Even if your cousin told you all this, it’s unlikely to be the whole story and possible that it is entirely untrue.

There are more than two categories of people who leave Judaism. It’s not all about physical desire in the teenage categories. That can be a factor, but rebellion is not about sx or alcohol or drugs. It’s often about parents, but certainly not always. Humans are complex.

As for your second category, yes, some people need to be shown the beauty of Judaism, but that’s not what creates belief in Gd. If a home is dysfunctional, children can find beauty elsewhere and latch on to it. Many children believe in Gd because He is so present in their lives. Some children have questions that are complex or unusual and are treated like lunatics at home. Some just can’t make sense of religion no matter what is modeled for them. There are plenty of other categories.

When I was a kid, we were told that those people were “just angry” as if that could be shrugged off. As if this was a deficiency on their part. Sometimes the community mistreats people and the anger is justified. If we never talk about it, we lose more people.

If a child is mistreated in Yeshiva, maybe in multiple schools, for being “out of the box,” should the parents never tell the kid that the schools are wrong for the way they treated him? It seems to me that not acknowledging the wrong in this situation would be a way to shove the kid OTD.

As for non-frum relatives, I think maintaining close relationships is important. Kids need to see different ways of life and understand how to be respectful. Unless the family has no boundaries and tries to destroy your religious lifestyle, you don’t take family away from kids. Your children will not leave Judaism just because cousin joe gets to eat at McDonald’s.

If we want our kids to stay frum, we have to raise our kids right. That doesn’t mean always loving their schools or ignoring community issues. It means creating an atmosphere that allows for the best communication with our kids. It means hearing their concerns as they grow, tailoring their upbringings to their individual needs and personalities, and making sure that they are able to come to us with ALL their questions. It means being honest with them. None of this is a guarantee that they’ll remain frum, but it should help point them in the right direction.

amother

Topaz ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:38 am

I think it's a very sensitive topic and frankly as a mother of an otd dd very distasteful to discuss.
There are so many reasons kids might not be frum, it's even weird to think you can categorize otd kids into 2 types of cases!

Just daven for your cousin and all kids that are struggling.

Be thankful you do not have personal experience with this issue.

All otd kids have one thing in common, for many different reasons, they're all in pain and not happy with their life!

ddmom

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:43 am

bgr8ful wrote:

looks like she joined a week ago so you aint wrong on at least 1 of those things.

If her birthday has anything to do with her user name, she's young too! Wink

amother

Antiquewhite

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:44 am

This post is in bad taste. Its not for us to dissect other people's challenges and choices. May Hashem never test you in this way.

It is also Lashon Hara to be speaking of your relatives in this way. No toeles. I suggest you delete, OP.

amother

Banana ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:48 am

OP if your aren't a mother of an OTD kid then keep your thoughts of the kind of homes they were raised in to yourself. Cousin doesn't count.
You have no idea!
As another amother wrote, this is quite distasteful.

We aren't interested in your thesis on why OUR kids went off the Derech or what kind of homes you think we had.

Inappropriate.

Signed,
Mother of an OTD kid

amother

Magnolia

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:48 am

OP,
I don’t think I agree with much of what you said, but one thing stands out to me. “BT's should not overly expose their kids to non-frum relatives ” if you are happy and confident in who you are, and are raising your kids with Ahavat Hashem and seeing the beauty of Torah Judaism, you should not need to hid from the non frum relatives.

Kiwi13

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 12:52 am

It’s a much more nuanced situation than you present in your OP. People are complicated. Life is complicated.

Lack of belonging, or struggling with things that place you outside the norm of frum life. Or needing help that can only be found outside the frum world.

Feeling hurt, let down, or betrayed by people who are supposed to represent God in this world.

Negative associations between striving to perfect oneself spiritually and coinciding trauma, illness, or loss (whether or not they had anything to do with each other logically).

Having ambition or talent with no clear acceptable expression in the frum world, which can be an unbelievably intense struggle of identity.

Lacking proper mentorship and acceptance.

The list goes on and on and on. Most will not fall neatly into a single category.