Bais yaakov vs non BY approach to teaching Tznius

shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 2:28 am

amother DarkCyan wrote:

Hmm that's interesting.
I went to BY and over a decade later we are still tznius, proud, and growing....
Meanwhile my friends that went to MO school (mind you I only have a few- a couple relatives and some family friends) are all wearing pants etc...

interesting because I grew up MO. We all wore skirts and sleeves till or right wbove our elbows. The VAST majority of those same girldms are all dressing either the same or more tzanua than they did. A small minotity went the other way. I know maybe 3 girls I went to school with that wear pants and dont cover.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 2:34 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Men are responsible for their ownselves.

100%
But so many women in this site have learned that they must dress modestly so that no man will faulter. 🙄
Its actually crazy.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 2:36 am

All I know is that in the schools I went to (graduated high school over 25 years ago) and they were just plain frum schools, nobody was learning anything about tzniut except for some halachot. And that was it. Nothing flowery, nothing about men. Just the basic facts.

amother

Viola ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:24 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

100%
But so many women in this site have learned that they must dress modestly so that no man will faulter. 🙄
Its actually crazy.

I don't think it's totally crazy.
Of course it's not the only reason or even the main reason why women should dress modestly.
But I'm pretty sure that understanding that we, as women, can potentially harm others is important too and is brought down in the poskim. We live in a society, and we have to care about each other. So no, we aren't responsible for the men faltering. They are responsible for themselves and wee are responsible for ourselves. At the same time, part of our responsibility is caring about a fellow jew and not putting a stumbling block before a blind man.
Sorry if this is unpopular, but you can't change basic biology.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:32 am

amother Viola wrote:

But to teach girls that the reason you have to dress a certain ways is because men are essentially, weak individuals, dosnt really go over well with teens. I know thst if thats what I would have been taught in high school, I would have gone the complete other way.
You want to teach about a mitzvah and why we do it in regards to ourselves, not how we do something to ensure others dont falter. Sorry but I just dont agree with you.

amother

↑ Viola

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:40 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

As I said, it's not the only reason or even the main reason. And, honestly, as a BY graduate, I don't recall ever being told anything about men or boys in a discussion of tznius. I have never once heard anything about men being "weak'. So I'm not even sure this talking point exists in Bais yaakovs, but maybe others have had different experiences.

But, as adults, I think we can all agree and reapect the fact that men amd women have different challenges, and that by dressing provocatively, we are potentially harming other jews. We don't exist in a vacuum and our behavior can and does affect others.

That is not to say that is the main reason. But if we want to have an honest discussion, this can be part of it. Different parts of a mitzva will resonate with different people.

↑ Elfrida ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:47 am

amother Viola wrote:

But, as adults, I think we can all agree and reapect the fact that men amd women have different challenges, and that by dressing provocatively, we are potentially harming other jews. We don't exist in a vacuum and our behavior can and does affect others.

That is not to say that is the main reason. But if we want to have an honest discussion, this can be part of it. Different parts of a mitzva will resonate with different people.

If you want to discuss it as adults, that might get an interesting discussion on another thread. This thread was specifically opened to discuss the way it is taught in different schools, to children and teenagers, not to adults.

↑ shabbatiscoming

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:49 am

amother Viola wrote:

Wow, sorry but one can be dressed mot to perfect tzniut standards and nkt be dressed provocatively.

↑ Elfrida

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:56 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Wow, sorry but one can be dressed mot to perfect tzniut standards and nkt be dressed provocatively.

On a different thread about tzniut last week, someone suggested wearing sleeves down to the wrists, because men had told her that when women pushed their sleeves up to the elbow, they found it very difficult. My reaction, was that that's their problem. Halacha requires me to wear sleeves that reach or cover the elbow (different views, not saying which is right), therefore I wear sleeves that cover my elbow. In the winter, it's comfortable to wear them longer. In the summer it isn't. Is wearing loose, three quarter length sleeves now provocative, because some men seem to find this hard to handle? I've done my part. The rest is on them. Teenagers would probably have a much stronger reaction.