Son got rejected from post h/s yeshiva due to hf-asd :(

amother

OP ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 10:06 am

Hi everyone,

Looking to commiserate and also some advice. My son (18) is finishing 12th grade this year (we are from the southern hemisphere so he will finish mid November) and we applied to a post high school yeshiva in Israel to go for next year. He is on the autism spectrum, but is very high functioning. He also had ADHD. He wash diagnosed with what was then aspergers when he was 4, and ADHD a few years later which is treated with medication. He has been regularly seeing a psychologist and occupational therapist since this time to work on any issues that have arisen, which has mainly been social skills and how to manage different situations etc. We have always tried to be proactive about maximising his potential rather than trying to hide his condition so that he can have good meaningful relationships and achieve his goals.

We are frum litvish family, and he is a good boy who doesn't get into trouble (main issues would be like any teenager getting to minyan on time), takes his studies and torah learning seriously etc. We spoke to his rebbe and the menahel of his school, along with our shul rav earlier this year about what yeshiva they would recommend (we would prefer Israel as we have family there as a support network), and everyone came back with the same Jerusalem yeshiva as a warm and nurturing smaller yeshiva that would be better for him then the risk of getting lost at a place like Gateshead or Mir etc. There are graduates of his school currently learning there, and our rabbi's son also teaches there so it isn't like my son would be a totally unknown variable in terms of where he is holding etc. In the application there was a question asking if they had ever in the past or currently see a psychologist or other mental health professional for any issues and to give details. My son didn't want to answer this as he felt that it would disadvantage him, but our approach is you can't go somewhere to learn torah that you haven't been totally emes with to get in there, and if there were any issues then they couldn't support him in the best way if they didn't have all the information.

We explained that he was high functioning ASD, and that he does see a psychologist but not for any mental health issues but to work on strategies to maximise his potential (or words to that affect).

We just heard back (after emailing to follow up on application as we were getting a bit worried), via email they said that they don't feel he is the right fit for their yeshiva. We spoke to both our rabbi and the menahel, who were both really upset on our sons behalf and both said they would contact the yeshiva to try and see if they could get them to budge. Other than our rabbi speaking to the Rosh Yeshiva when he was visiting a few weeks ago (who told us he spoke up our son and told them how good he is) the yeshiva did not contact his class rebbe, menahel or us to discuss anything relating to our son and any potential issues etc. The menahel spoke to the Rosh Yeshiva who said that the incoming shiur will have a group size of 8 (which is about the size of his current high school class as he goes to a small school) and that they didn't think it would be a good idea to have anyone with social skill issues that might affect the social dynamics. The menahel (who I know genuinely likes my son and looks out for him) told us straight out he disagrees fundamentally with what they are saying but doesn't think we will get the to change their minds. The place that they said might be good for him I can't see any information about (no website etc) but there is a Google review saying it is good for boys who struggle with learning. That would be the worst place to send him IMO, he likes learning and is a good frum boy and we don't want to send him somewhere that he might be influenced in a negative way. The menahel said he hadn't heard of this yeshiva but would look into options tomorrow for us. Somebody had previously suggested Pisga (based at Ohr Somayach) but my son rejected it saying that the boys he had known that went there all had issues and couldn't hack a mainstream yeshiva (I don't know if this is true or not, but it is his impression of it). He was insulted and felt that we thought that of him, so even more so I think he will struggle with this rejection and like many of the kids on the spectrum it is hard to get an idea out of mind once it is fixed, so not going to this place that had assumed he would go to will be a real blow. I don't want to send him to a problem yeshiva, I feel like surely there is a place for him?

It is so wrong, to just discrimination against him like that without even talking to anyone who knows him to see where his social skills are at and to find out if they do think there would be any issues, instead they have just seen our answers and straight out said no. We are very upset, I have cried over this all day. I haven't told my son yet, I am worried this will really affect his confidence and he will give up and stay here and go to university instead but I feel like the post school yeshiva experience is so important for their development, to say nothing of shidduch chances (although I have a feeling if this is bad then shidduchim will be terrible).

Has anyone been through this before? Any words of advice on how to manage it or any places they would recommend we look into?

Thank you for reading, I know it is long!

amother

Tuberose

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 2:49 pm

Oy I was so saddened by this... My hfa son is still young (6) but in a way sounds so similar to your son. I would be so devastated if that happened to him :-(
I dont have any advice but really feeling your pain. Wish you lots of luck getting him into the right yeshiva where he will thrive!

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 4:28 pm

Wow, I could have written this post, with just a few changes.
My son is 21, and is in many ways a solid yeshiva bachur. He also has HF ASD and Adhd. The meds apparently interfere with his sleep and he has a had time falling asleep at night. Consequently, he often oversleeps in the morning and misses shacharis. He was rejected at the yeshiva that all of his friends are going to because if his shacharis record.
We have no idea where he will be for Elul Zman.
No advice OP, just hugs and much hatzlacha.

amother

Wandflower

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 5:12 pm

We learned the hard way that to get a kid with HFA into post high school in Israel, girl or boy, you need someone with some influence pushing for you, before decisions are made. Once they have said no, it's very difficult to get them to change their minds (though not impossible). We also wrote honestly, having asked a shailah, but didn't do enough work before the decisions. The schools are very scared to have these students far away from home and their routines. And most are not familiar enough with the issues and subtleties.

In general, very small schools and very big in demand ones seem to be the hardest- the big ones have too many applicagions and a "name", and the really small ones have this issue with such a small group that they can't blunt the imoact and may not have any resources. Best shot seems to be middle sized, very understanding of individuals, and and unfortunately, not the highest level. You want a place where the young people are motivated to learn and grow, and may be more B level in general but there is opportunity for reaching up and personalized learning opportunities. For example, can they set him up with a chavrusah with a metzuyan even if his shiur is a but slower? He should be fine as long as the boys are growers.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 9:46 pm

Have you looked at Yishrei Lev in Telz Stone? It is a mid-size yeshiva (20-25 boys per year). The top shiur is very high level learning, first-rate rebbeim, and they are known for accepting boys who may be out-of-the-box in some way as well as "typical" boys who want a more personal environment. I personally know many very strong boys who went there and thrived, both in learning and socially. The boys come from more RWMO high schools as well as OOT yeshivish schools, so it may not be on your radar if you are considering Gateshead/Mir-type yeshivos, but it's worth talking to them.

Chana Miriam S

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 10:24 pm

My son (28) was kicked out within 2 days because he was jet lagged and stimmy. We mismanaged his start. After that he found several schools, interviewed and decided to go to Darkaynu in efrat. I think that he was on the higher functioning side of students there but he had a great year.

amother

Crystal

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:28 pm

amother OP wrote:

The only thing I can say is that I had a medicated boy with adhd and asd in class last year (public school) and he was an absolute delight to have. His issues didn’t make him asocial and he didn’t make any trouble in class.
I am so sorry for your son. But I am sure another yeshiva will take him.

amother

Mulberry

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:58 pm

Ughh
I'm so sorry to hear this.
I work in a yeshiva and see the applications and sometimes when a school gets an overwhelming amount of applications they are just looking for ways to cut it down and will reject boys at first glance when seeing a diagnosis.

I really wish there was more understanding.

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 2:27 am

I hope it iyh works out for him.

I also want to say that, while emes is a huge value. My understanding of “lying for the sake of shalom” is knowing when to tell someone what. I would not write such a thing on the application. I would wait and when accepted let my rebbi reach out with the information.

In a similar vein- if when shiddduchim comes around you automatically start with special shadchanim and are open about his dx people will assume it’s worse than it is and *you couldn’t hide it* because if it’s subtle enough you’d share it on a third date or such after getting to know someone a bit.

I am so sad you and your son had to experience this but iyh he should get into a yeshiva that’s perfect for him and have a successful year.

amother

Bottlebrush

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 3:00 am

Your son is right, you should not have answered the question. Saying this as a mom of a HF ASD son, it is no ones business what he needs to do to help him function socially. Schools and freinds should be judging him by his actions not his diagnosis. You make that challenging by putting his diagnosis front and center before they get to know him. I never tell anyone unless necessary. I usually tell his Rebbe...."DS has it more challenging doing---------" . without mentioning a diagnosis. This way he gets the support he needs without getting labeled or marginalized.

I dont have any ideas for you....but I wish you luck.

LovesHashem ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 3:08 am

amother Slateblue wrote:

This all the way.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 3:11 am

amother Bottlebrush wrote:

I usually tell his Rebbe...."DS has it more challenging doing---------" . without mentioning a diagnosis. This way he gets the support he needs without getting labeled or marginalized.

I dont have any ideas for you....but I wish you luck.

It's fascinating how I can literally list all the traits of autism and no one's bat's an eyelash.

"I have sensory issues, so z is hard for me, I need time to recharge after social scenarios, I have trouble concentrating, understanding social cues don't come so natural to me, I need to leave the wedding early cuz these environments are just too busy for me, etc"..

Say the word autism and people think you are some kind of mentally [crazy] special needs person, and look at you through that lens.

amother

Valerian

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 5:33 am

I second not answering the question his application was DOA.

amother

Khaki ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 6:09 am

Why would a Yeshiva need to know if a child has HFA or ADHD if it doesn't show much? We don't have to give our medical records, why do we have to supply this information?

amother

Copper

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 6:13 am

amother Khaki wrote:

Why would a Yeshiva need to know if a child has HFA or ADHD if it doesn't show much? We don't have to give our medical records, why do we have to supply this information?

In an ideal world, this would give them the information they need to properly accommodate him and anticipate challenges he might have so they can be addressed promptly.

Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world.

It's hard to know what to do when a person who "hides" (doesn't announce) a particular issue is vilified, but someone who does share it gets rejected because of it. Same problem comes up in shidduchim.

amother

↑ Khaki

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 7:28 am

amother Copper wrote:

Yes, unfortunately there is a lot of ignorance and range when it comes to spectrum. The reality is that concerning the mild cases, parents who take care of that are usually the ones that are more perceptive, since most regular people don't notice mild cases or end up not diagnosing .I don't think anyone has the right to know of any private information that is irrelevant and that parents do not have to answer these types of question or feel guilty about not volunteering it.

amother

Pansy ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 8:01 am

I also have a HFA son, although not ADHD.

I don't remember if we told the Yeshiva about his diagnoses before or after acceptance, but either way we didn't have any issues bh.

I guess we were very lucky.

We specifically sent him to a smaller less popular yeshiva so he wouldn't get lost and he is very happy. We got lovely emails from his yeshiva saying what a great boy he is.

amother

Snowdrop

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 12:00 am

Whats done is done. Ask his rebbe for another recommendation and that he can personally contact someone he knows there to help your ds get in.

Or your shul rabbi or the menahel.

Ask a shaila if you should answer that honestly. It's one thing to say yes if the psychology is current & for mental health issues vs either a long time ago/resolved and it wasn't a serious issue,, or more for a lighter issue like as an adviser rather than mental health.

Maybe call rabbi strauss in lakewood to recommend a good yeshiva fit if the rabbis in your community don't have any more ideas.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 9:34 pm

I just wanted to say thank you from the bottom of my heart to everyone that responded - it means a lot to me.

I have spent the last week ruminating on this whole situation. On the balance of everything (and we still have to ask a sheilah about this) I won't be putting about his diagnosis for future applications as I don't believe people can see past this to even find out what extra supports he might need. Instead once accepted we will just advise what things he struggles with in a way that doesn't give too much away. I am cross with the yeshivah, I feel like the question was sheker in a way if they were just going to use that as a basis to say no (if they were genuine they would have asked either his class rebbe, menahel or shul rabbi before making a decision). I don't agree that this is the right approach for the torah world to take, to just say no to these kids. Those parents who take the approach of trying to get all the help and support they can by getting a diagnosis etc are punished for this, and yet there are so many on here saying that their husbands don't have a diagnosis, should have recieved help and didn't and it had affected severely their marriage etc. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Maybe I am just upset as this is the first time we have come across this kind of blatant discrimination. It would be very against the law in my country for those to happen (although I am sure it still does), and his primary and secondary school and the same schools just on different campuses, so it isn't like we needed to reapply or anything. Looking into universities post yeshiva they have all thse special procedures and assistance for neurodiversity, so it is sad that yeshivas do this. I get they are taking a lot of responsibility for looking after these boys or girls, and if they have acute mental health issues that meant they were a danger to themselves or others I understand that they would hesitate to take that on, but my child is nowhere near that and still it was a blanket no without consideration.

We told him about not being accepted, he took it a lot better than I did. We didn't say that it was because his was on the spectrum, jut that they gave an evasive answer about it not being the right place for him etc and there is no point flogging a dead horse so to speak.

amother

↑ OP

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 9:35 pm

We have a few other places that have been suggested to us, so we are looking into them and hoping that they aren't full already. Will hopefully post back here soon with good news.