Avraham's Descendants

justforfun87

Mon, Aug 05 2024, 7:18 pm

I keep thinking about this as it is really bother me. Growing up they always taught us that Hashem promised to Avraham his descendents would be as many stars in the sky and grains in the sand. It always gave me so much hope.
Now when I look at the world's demographics how do we know he wasn't talking about his descendents through Yishmael? There are a BILLION Muslims and how many of us?

Rubber Duck

Mon, Aug 05 2024, 7:20 pm

I don’t have a complete answer to your question but there are billions of yidden just not all frum..

nightingale1

Mon, Aug 05 2024, 7:37 pm

In the context of the whole perel, you can see it’s obviously referring to Yitzchak, it’s right after the akeida.

You can also read a lot of the commentary on that pasuk explaining it’s referring to our greatness and not quantity. You can see this in Devarim 1:10 as well

There are also a lot of sources that explain whenever it says “zera” it’s only referring to Yiztchak not Yishmael.

Trademark

Mon, Aug 05 2024, 7:39 pm

Rubber Duck wrote:

I don’t have a complete answer to your question but there are billions of yidden just not all frum..

There are only about 15 million Jews worldwide.

About 0.2% of the population.

self-actualization

Mon, Aug 05 2024, 7:51 pm

It’s quality of contributions to society. Many meforshim say this. And it’s clear that we are the shining stars of contributions to every society that we have lived amongst.

zaq

Tue, Aug 06 2024, 2:41 pm

BTW there is no historical evidence that Arabs ( from the Arabian Peninsula--all those Muslims in the Far East are not Arabs, and neither are black Muslims) are descendants of Yishmael. Mohammed invented that when he invented Islam. He evidently thought a connection to Abraham would be good PR.

b.chadash ↓

Tue, Aug 06 2024, 4:14 pm

zaq wrote:

This is interesting. I don't think I ever heard this.
But I think everyone agrees that both the Arabs (even not Muslim) and the Muslims (even not Arabs) are the spiritual descendants of Yishmael.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Tue, Aug 06 2024, 4:17 pm

This is one of the most fascinating (and quick-paced) presentation I have heard on the topic. It's an interview with Rabbi Ken Spiro on Inspiration for the Nation. He also had many other brilliant lectures online.
https://youtu.be/KT7pumV_BwY?s.....VUSy.

Last edited by b.chadash on Tue, Aug 06 2024, 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

leah233

Tue, Aug 06 2024, 4:22 pm

zaq wrote:

The Koran does not explicitly claim that Mohammed and co are descended from Yishmael.

The claim that Arabs are descended from Yishmael has to predate Mohammed because Josephus already claimed that Arabs were circumcised at the age of thirteen years, because that was the age at which their ancestor Yishmael was circumcised (Josephus, 1.12.2)

Last edited by leah233 on Tue, Aug 06 2024, 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ b.chadash

Tue, Aug 06 2024, 4:29 pm

There were obviously Arabs before Yishmael. Rashi in Valera says that the 3 angels who visited Avraham were dressed as Arabs.

And yet, today, the Arab world is cinsidered the spiritual children of Yishmael, similar to the Christen world/ Western civilization, who are the spiritual descendants of Eisav.