What type of chinuch are you giving?

amother

Poinsettia

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:06 am

We send to schools and yeshivas that have school rules. But I have never gotten rules for at home. At home we do according to our family minhagim.

Its ok for my kids to know that every family follows their minhagim.

↑ imaima

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:07 am

amother OP wrote:

Little girls (under 6-7) wearing knee socks is not a halachic subject afaik. It's purely a chassidish thing.
My kids go to more neutral chassidish schools & most little girls don't wear tights when there's no school. For us, it's a school rule like any other.

Chassidic sources are sources too.
The debate about appropriate dress for women and men started before chassidus even began. It’s just that chassidim chose to follow other authorities than other kinds of Jews.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:07 am

keym wrote:

That's actually not true.

Little girls covering their legs starting at 3 is most definitely a halachic conversation with halachic responsa from the Mishna Brura, R Moshe, R Shlomo Zalman, and the Chazon Ish among others.

Personally, we're not makpid at 3, and we're never makpid on tights, knee socks that fully cover the leg is fine according to my shita.

But it's incorrect to say that there's no halachic conversation or source.

Knee socks cover the legs. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't imagine it would be a halachic issue that you must wear tights.

amother

↑ DarkRed ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:07 am

amother OP wrote:

I get it. But most schools do have uniforms. So should girls wear uniform even when there's no school? Is it wrong chinuch for girls to wear regular clothing when there's no school.

You know that this scenario holds no weight with your issue, right? School uniforms have nothing to do with hashkafa and the girls know it, they know that this is strictly an item of clothing that was made to wear in school and no where else.
How can you compare it to having differing hashkafic views at home then in school? IMO it does confuse the kids, which is why it's important to send to a school with the same ideals as you. AFIK, no neutral school is that strict with tights at age 3, tights at 6-7 is a normal expectation of the girls both at home and in school.
6-7 year olds aren't stupid, how to you plan to explain it to them? That the school is frummer then your family? Why then do you send there?

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:10 am

amother DarkRed wrote:

You know that this scenario holds no eight with your issue, right? School uniforms have nothing to do with hashkafa and the girls know it, they know that this is strictly an item of clothing that was made to wear in school and no where else.
How can you compare it to having differing hashkafic views at home then in school? IMO it does confuse the kids, which is why it's important to send to a school with the same ideals as you. AFIK, no neutral school is that strict with tights at age 3, tights at 6-7 is a normal expectation of the girls both at home and in school.
6-7 year olds aren't stupid, how to you plan to explain it to them? That the school is frummer then your family? Why then do you send there?

You can explain that these are school rules and we have house rules? Why is that confusing?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:14 am

amother DarkRed wrote:

My girls wear tights from age 6-7, and most of their classmates do as well. The school is at the same hashkafic wavelength as our home.
No, kids are not stupid. But they do understand that school & home are 2 different things & school rules are for school & not for at home.

amother

↑ DarkRed

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:14 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

You can explain that these are school rules and we have house rules? Why is that confusing?

Why can't you send to a school that's values equal your house rules?
Neutral chassidish schools like are full of families who's house rules don't match the chassidus's school rule. If you're already going far enough to say that even the neutral schools don't align with your house rules, then I agree that you have a problem.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:17 am

amother DarkRed wrote:

School rules & house rules do not have to be the same.
The schools hashkafa is similar to our home hashkafa, but this doesn't mean that what's done in school must be done at home, and the school doesn’t expect it to be that way either. They leave the chinuch up to the parents.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:19 am

amother DarkRed wrote:

A lot of schools bedavka have more rules than most people have at home.

I went to a Chassidish "neutral" school. I would say about half the students had the same rules at home as at school. And as far as I know the school had no problem with it as long as you didn't blatantly flaunt the rules. I wore beige to school. The school knew good and well that the second I graduated I would not wear beige again. They were fine with it and it wasn't at all confusing to me.

A lot of other parts of their hashkafa aligned well with my family's though.

Also, not everyone has endless choices in regard to school.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Lightpink

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:20 am

In general it is best to send to a school with similar standards. My girls wear knee socks starting first grade. I dont encourage panty hose because I don't wear them. I do wear leggings which many by schools don't let. While in school you can have higher standards because you are learning torah. That's how I would phrase it. Right now my daughter goes to a special ed school with slightly lower standards then us. But for hs I would not send there. You also have to keep in mind sensory issues. My daughter won't go without socks ever. She also likes leggings more than tights because they are more comfy. We encourage long skirts and let her wear leggings at 13. But not around people who have higher standards.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:23 am

The same neighbor also gives grief to another neighbor who's son's school doesn’t allow the 3-4 year old boys to wear an initial on their yalmulka, but for shabbos her son does wear a nice yalmulka with an initial or design.

bigsis144

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:26 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Knee socks cover the legs. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't imagine it would be a halachic issue that you must wear tights.

I personally only wear knee socks with a longer skirt, maxi length or a little above the ankle. Because even a skirt that fully covers the knee when sitting and standing might flash a bit of knee getting in/out of a car or other occasional activity.

Especially for little girls who are running around at recess, or sitting cross-legged on the floor, while wearing a “short” pleated uniform skirt, it makes sense to not just have them in knee socks and underwear beneath their skirts.

So I can see it both ways. Not a halachic requirement, but a reasonable precaution.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:30 am

We live OOT and send to a school with a mixed student body: Chabad, MO, yeshivish, JPF, heimish. Everyone understands that the school is a mix of different types of families and that everyone follows different things outside school. I could see how it would be more confusing if the school claimed to only accept a certain type or hashkafa.

↑ Mommyg8

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 8:47 am

bigsis144 wrote:

I am referring to non school settings. A lot of little girls wear long skirts nowadays, no need to wear tights.

And we are talking about a FOUR year old, for heavens sakes, it's ok they flash a tiny bit of knee now and then when they are playing.

I am talking about the halachic perspective only - if tights are more practical then by all means wear them.

bsy

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:41 am

amother OP wrote:

In my opinion, she's just odd.. why is she minding everyone else's business? My daughter had a uniform from age 4. It had a long sleeve blouse, jumper and knee socks. That didn't mean she can't wear short sleeves at home or camp. She did and most of the class did. It's simply a uniform and no one had a hard time understanding it. It seems your neighbor has a hard time differentiating between school rules and halacha. Nothing to do with you. I'd ignore and live my own life.

Chayalle ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 11:14 am

amother OP wrote:

Once upon a time people like your neighbor were known as "yenta".
Why does she care so much what other people are doing?

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 11:16 am

bigsis144 wrote:

I would also only wear socks with a longer skirt, but I am an adult. My DD's, when they were little girls running around at recess, or sitting cross-legged on the floor, were not, so it didn't matter much if they wore short socks and underwear and it showed. We didn't see it as a problem, not halachic or otherwise.

amother

Springgreen ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 11:21 am

amother OP wrote:

She obviously has issues. Really severe issues. Don’t listen to people who don’t seem very healthy.

amother

Lilac ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 11:24 am

amother OP wrote:

What is very confusing to kids though, is like what Satmer school does. They do not allow the girls to wear white tights to school and daycamp, they told the girls that it's not tzenuis. But they have a rule that girls must wear white tights on shabbos. So is it tzenuis or not??? The girls realize & question. That's confusing.

They don't say it's not tznius to wear white tights. They aren't idiots.
Ok, maybe some individual teachers are lol.
They say that standing out and wearing white in school is not tznius.
I'm not saying I agree with that rule or their definition of tznius, but they are not contradicting themselves.

I wonder if your neighbor was the one who told you that satmar says this. Sounds like her type!