School for Gifted Children in Bklyn or Manhattan

amother

Coral ↓

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 11:54 am

mha3484 wrote:

This is a kid who the menahel told me in early elementary was smarter then half the rebbeim. Its extremely hard and his school is fantastic. But its a hard lonely life. I wish there was a support group for this.

Hi! I would join.

So difficult. We had one fabulous teacher who had dc write down all questions in a notebook and hand it in at the end of class. The teacher would take it and write the answers, sometimes right away and sometimes it would say "I need to look into it" or "you should try to ask person x". It was a major gift of their time and we appreciate it.

These kids also often never learn to study. They get everything quickly, research things that interest them, and then one day late in high school or even later they hit a subject that's hard for them and they fall apart.

amother

↑ Firebrick ↓

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 12:00 pm

mha3484 wrote:

I understand, but still, if his IQ is in the 130s, he should still not be the only one in his class on his level. Try not to focus so much on the number, it’s not as important as the big picture combined with his emotional and social intelligence. He may have a higher IQ than half the rebbeim, but IQ isn’t everything. An experienced rebbi decades older than him should still be able to keep him stimulated and engaged. He also may have other things that make school harder for him- sensory issues, add, etc, these things often come along with high IQ.

amother

↑ Coral ↓

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 12:03 pm

amother Lemonchiffon wrote:

All MO schools that I am familiar with have enrichment and tracking. Regarding the misbehavior because she’s so advanced that sounds exactly like my dd with ADHD. Did you have her tested?

There are kids who are beyond this. And their minds work differently. They sut in their class and have a million questions and the teachers can't stay teaching at their level. And nobody wants them all day on Kahn Academy because of socialization, which they need badly. They may ask questions that the teachers experience as chitzpahdik, either because of a lack of social niceties due to ignorance or perceiving themselves as equals with the teacher (knowledgewise they might be), or because the teacher is actually wrong. Or missing or not teaching context that they choose to leave out for their class but on a higher level would be negligent to skip... etc. But the kids don't understands this, or do and are very frustrated.

And tracking them up enough puts them with kids older than them, which is also usually not good for too long.

amother

↑ Firebrick ↓

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 12:12 pm

amother Coral wrote:

Some of what you described is a middos issue or a social issue. Even a brilliant kid should be taught when to stop asking questions in class. And I don’t see why it’s a social issue if the kid is busy with other work during class time, but still with their classmates at recess lunch etc. It’s not ideal, but neither is the situation of a learning disabled kid. Extremes on either ends of the spectrum need to be accommodated.

amother

↑ Coral

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 12:20 pm

amother Firebrick wrote:

It's not about stopping to ask (although that can be an issue too)- it's aboit the type. These kids are more likely to ask questions that make their teachers look or feel stupid, that contradict them. They will ask them completely innocently, but it's often not experienced that way, either by the teacher or the other kids. So when dc's teacher had the notebook, dc sometimes would correct something, or ask if the teacher was aware of a certain aspect that answered a raised question. And sometimes the teacher used that info in class later on.

It is very, very hard for an elementary age or middle school age kids to sit through a whole class while thinking about this. These kids often learn best by bouncing ideas off each other, with knowledge as the priority and without worrying about possible understood offense. Think about it like a chavrusah pair who may sound like they're fighting but are really challenging each other's ideas.

amother

↑ Bellflower

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 12:24 pm

amother Coral wrote:

Bingo.

amother

↑ Firebrick ↓

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 12:31 pm

amother Coral wrote:

The poster said her son has an IQ in the 130’s, that means his IQ is approx one standard deviation above the Ashkenazi average. Statistically, this means that in a class of 25 yeshiva boys, about 2-5 boys will have an IQ greater than or equal to his. Most yeshivas that are worth their money have already found ways to accommodate these kids. It’s not like her kid is one in a million in the yeshiva world.

If a kid is making his rebbi look stupid on a consistent basis, then he does not have a very good rebbi.

I agree that bright children do need extra accommodations, like your daughter’s teacher who had write things down in a notebook. That’s great! And accommodations like that are not huge deals for school to implement. Again, these children are not one in a million. A school not willing to work with you with a child like this is simply not a good school.

amother

↑ Firebrick ↓

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 12:34 pm

amother Firebrick wrote:

And to add on, of course a child like this will still have challenges, but that’s ok, school doesn’t last forever. Parents should try to ease them through it as well as possible, and of course give them plenty of enrichment outside of school.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 1:39 pm

amother Lemonchiffon wrote:

All MO schools that I am familiar with have enrichment and tracking. Regarding the misbehavior because she’s so advanced that sounds exactly like my dd with ADHD. Did you have her tested?

Yes, she has slight ADHD, but according to her psychiatrist the problems she's having at school is because she's not being stimulated enough.

I have ADHD too so I know what it's like

amother

↑ OP

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 1:46 pm

amother Firebrick wrote:

Agreed. Being brilliant comes with its own challenges.

OP, I think most regular BY schools in Brooklyn have an academic program that can accommodate smart students, and most work with parents when a student is extra bright, to give her different work etc.

It doesn’t make sense that the school is asking you to give her medication to “slow her down” as in “make her dumber”. There are obviously some issues going on with her in class, perhaps related to her smartness/boredom, that they don't like (rightly or wrongly).

I think the issue here is just the school, you may not need a “gifted school”, just one who is willing to work with smarter kids.

Yes, she gets bored and fidgety when the class keeps repeating concepts that she already knows. And this is a school with a supposedly high academic level that many kids can't reach. By upper elementary a significant number of girls need tutoring just to get by. They can't/won't accommodate an even higher level of academics.

My biggest issue is that they don't make her actually work on the things she doesn't automatically grasp since she is already in the top 5% so she will be missing some basics as we go along. (This was communicated to me at the end of the school year and now over the summer am working to remedy it)

amother

↑ Lemonchiffon

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 1:49 pm

amother Coral wrote:

Yes I know exactly what these kids are like. And a lot of the ones that really struggle with the school day are gifted and have ADHD.

Tracking doesn’t mean skipping a grade, it means a class within the grade that learns on a more advanced level. MO schools usually have that and enrichment which is pulling out in smaller groups for extra higher level learning opportunities.

amother

↑ Burntblack

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 3:36 pm

amother Firebrick wrote:

My son is also extremely bright and BH we found a yeshiva that has an enrichment track which works well for him.

Side note, while the average IQ is 100, the average Ashkenazi IQ is about 120. So a 130+ IQ in the yeshiva world is not such a standout, not comparable to how it would be a standout in a public school. You shouldn’t have such a hard time finding him a stimulating yeshiva environment. Statistically, there will be a few other boys in his class with a similar IQ.

The average range for Ashkenazi IQ is about 100-120 (as opposed to the broader population average of 90-110). 120 IQs may be more common among Jews, but they are not the average.

amother

↑ Firebrick

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 3:50 pm

amother Burntblack wrote:

The average range for Ashkenazi IQ is about 100-120 (as opposed to the broader population average of 90-110). 120 IQs may be more common among Jews, but they are not the average.

Different studies have put the average Ashkenazi IQ at 108-115, however, Ashkenazi IQ test results tend to have much larger than average gaps between spatial intelligence and verbal intelligence. Ashkenazi Jews average at least 120 in verbal IQ, while they are closer to the general population average in spatial IQ. This brings their overall average IQ as an ethnic group down to about 112-115. However, mathematical/logical reasoning/verbal IQ, which is most of what makes a student “bright” in school, averages in the 120s.

“The most direct evidence of a difference in intelligence among Ashkenazi Jews comes from psychometric tests. Different studies have found different results, but most have found well above-average verbal and mathematical intelligence in Ashkenazi Jews, along with slightly below-average spatial intelligence,[1][2] producing an average IQ score in the range of roughly 107 to 115, well above the general mean of 100.[3][4][5][6] Cochran et al. calculated an average IQ of 112–115,[7] and Murray & Entine found 107–115.[6][8][9] A 1954 study found that 24 of the 28 (86%) children in the New York public school system who had an IQ of 170 or higher were Jewish.[6] One study found that Ashkenazi Jews had only near-average visual-spatial intelligence, about IQ 98, while a 1958 study of yeshiva students demonstrated that they had an extraordinary high verbal intelligence (which includes verbal reasoning, comprehension, working memory, and mathematical computation) as their median verbal IQ was found to be nearly 126.[5]”

https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/29250

Also, even small differences in averages make huge differences at the extremes. For example,
“ A1954 study found that 24 of the 28 (86%) children in the New York public school system who had an IQ of 170 or higher were Jewish”.

This means statistically that at least 10% of an ashkenazi class will have verbal/mathematical IQs above 130.

amother

Tuberose

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 4:07 pm

My community doesnt offer it, but 2 of my children have high iqs, one school just gives my child more advanced work, she skipoed a year and is the youngest, but she needs to work independantly a lot, cos the zeacher tends to work more with the rest of the class. plus we started piano and chess classes because she is always curious to get challenged...oh and she learns a third language for fun...we do all if this so that she doesnt get too bored and this way she behaves well in school setting.

Child Nr 2's school doesnt accomodate. He is a quiet kid who is bored a lot and in his hpurs of freetime during lessons learns koydesh, eg chasers gemorre alone etc.

I wish there was a frum programme for these kids...

My other kids dont have issues learning but definitely dont chap as quickly and their memory/ abstract thinking is less developed: they just fit into our schoolsystem perfectly, perform very well without being bored or underwelmed with their schoolexpetience.we definitely see a difference, being gifted means a lot of extra for the parents, which we see as our responsibility.

bruriyah

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 7:22 pm

amother OP wrote:

She is gifted, no learning disabilities. Super duper brilliant and yes the school said to slow her down and yes we are horrified and want to pull her out. We are JPF in Brooklyn and are looking for any school that can accommodate her and teach her to love being frum. She can receive our personal hashkafa from home.

Have you had her tested to see if she is actually gifted? That would be 2 standard deviations above the mean.

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Jul 29 2024, 9:56 pm

My dd is going into pre1a iyH.
We are OOT.
My father keeps telling me that I need to find some form of enrichment for her.
I don’t really have any ideas. I doubt there are any options in mainstream school?

Any ideas?

(As an aside there’s a different thread here on Imamother about a website for parents of gifted children to stimulate their kids. I don’t remember what it’s called.)