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-> Parenting our children
amother
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 Sun, Jul 21 2024, 1:44 pm
| amother OP wrote: | My son has never seen his father naked. He was also grossed out that I was casually talking to DH with him naked. Do we not address this at all?
The privacy issue is a big issue. We need to deal with it. I'm not sure how. He has ASD, boundaries is a huge issue in general. I wish I could explain it to him in a way that he actually got it. He doesn't seem to. The code lock was our way of keeping him out when we're in there and when we're not. Unfortunately he picked it. |
To the bolded: as should be the case. It's actually assur to see one's father's erva.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 1:45 pm
| amother OP wrote: | My son has never seen his father naked. He was also grossed out that I was casually talking to DH with him naked. Do we not address this at all?
The privacy issue is a big issue. We need to deal with it. I'm not sure how. He has ASD, boundaries is a huge issue in general. I wish I could explain it to him in a way that he actually got it. He doesn't seem to. The code lock was our way of keeping him out when we're in there and when we're not. Unfortunately he picked it. |
I would explain to him that even though we are not allowed to walk around and talk to people while undressed, a husband and wife are allowed to.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 2:34 pm
| amother Plum wrote: | | Just letting you know, despite all the horrified reactions, I think you're right. There's nothing wrong with a same-gender parent bathing with young children. People's reactions here are way over the top. |
Thank you!!
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 3:25 pm
| amother Pistachio wrote: | | To the bolded: as should be the case. It's actually assur to see one's father's erva. |
What's the source for this? And does the source state from what age this applies?
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 3:27 pm
| amother Starflower wrote: | | What's the source for this? And does the source state from what age this applies? |
The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (72:13) does state that one may not shower with one's father, father-in-law, bother-in-law and teacher, if they are not minimally covered. (Unless one is needed to help them; a proof that it's a respect issue
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amother
Salmon
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 3:37 pm
| amother Oleander wrote: | | The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (72:13) does state that one may not shower with one's father, father-in-law, bother-in-law and teacher, if they are not minimally covered. (Unless one is needed to help them; a proof that it's a respect issue |
The original source for this is taken from parsha noach. When noach was drunk, it says that shem and yafes took a cloak to cover noach and walked backwards "so as not to to see the nakedness of their father."
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 5:21 pm
My DH didn't write this, but he approves of what is written.
It says below that Rabbi Elyashiv said that the prohibition you stated begins when a boy turns 10 and according to Rav Chaim Kanievsky it's when a boy turns 13.
Not saying that this is what we'll do. Just FYI for anyone who stated halachick concerns.
I posted the sources with the exact references so anyone can find the sefer it's written in and translate it for themselves.
הלכה פסוקה היא בשו"ע אבה"ע סי' כג, סעי' ו שאסור לרחוץ במרחץ יחד עם אביו או חמיו או בעל אמו או בעל אחותו, ודין זה מקורו בגמ' פסחים דף נא. ועיקר האיסור מחשש להרהור, כיון שרוחצים בלא בגד לגופם. וכבר כתב הפתחי תשובה שם ס"ק ה :"ולא ידעתי על מה סמכו העולם להקל בזה".
וגם בפוסקי דורנו נכתבו לשונות ברורים לאסור בבן גדול (מעל בר מצוה) שלא ירחץ עם אביו, וכמו שכתב הגר"ש וואזנר ע"ה שאם הבן גדול לית דין ולית דין שאסור, ואין לימוד זכות" (שבט הלוי ז,רב) וכ"כ בלהורות נתן (א. סא,יג) ובשו"ת בית אבי (ב. קג) ועוד.
אך בילדים קטנים ממש יש פוסקים שהקלו שכל עוד הבן הוא קטן שאין שייך אצלו הרהור – מותר לאב לרחוץ עמו (ראה ס' הזכרונות להרה"ק ר"צ הכהן מלובלין, מ"ע א. וכ"כ בשו"ת דברי יציב ליקוטים סי' קכג), ואף הרב וואזנר (שם) כתב שאם הבן קטן ביותר שעדין לא שייך הרהור כ"כ, ובפרט כשהקטן צריך לאביו – אין למחות במקילים.
*אך קשה להגדיר גיל ברור עד מתי נחשב קטן לענין זה. יש שכתבו עד גיל 9 (ס' אם אני חומה עמ' שעז), ויש שכתב עד גיל 10 (ס' כיבוד הורים פ"ד הע' לו בשם הגריש"א ע"ה), ויש מי שהגדיל זאת עד גיל 13 (ס' דולה ומשקה עמ' שפו. וכ"כ בס' עלי שי"ח עמ' רלז).*
וראה בשו"ת קנין תורה (ב. לד,ב) ובשו"ת להורות נתן שם שכתבו לימוד זכות נוסף על מה שרבים מקילים בזה, ואכמ"ל.
וראה עוד בשו"ת מנח"י (ד, סב) דבמקום חשש סכנה פשיטא שמותר.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 6:02 pm
| amother Starflower wrote: | My DH didn't write this, but he approves of what is written.
It says below that Rabbi Elyashiv said that the prohibition you stated begins when a boy turns 10 and according to Rav Chaim Kanievsky it's when a boy turns 13.
Not saying that this is what we'll do. Just FYI for anyone who stated halachick concerns.
I posted the sources with the exact references so anyone can find the sefer it's written in and translate it for themselves.
הלכה פסוקה היא בשו"ע אבה"ע סי' כג, סעי' ו שאסור לרחוץ במרחץ יחד עם אביו או חמיו או בעל אמו או בעל אחותו, ודין זה מקורו בגמ' פסחים דף נא. ועיקר האיסור מחשש להרהור, כיון שרוחצים בלא בגד לגופם. וכבר כתב הפתחי תשובה שם ס"ק ה :"ולא ידעתי על מה סמכו העולם להקל בזה".
וגם בפוסקי דורנו נכתבו לשונות ברורים לאסור בבן גדול (מעל בר מצוה) שלא ירחץ עם אביו, וכמו שכתב הגר"ש וואזנר ע"ה שאם הבן גדול לית דין ולית דין שאסור, ואין לימוד זכות" (שבט הלוי ז,רב) וכ"כ בלהורות נתן (א. סא,יג) ובשו"ת בית אבי (ב. קג) ועוד.
אך בילדים קטנים ממש יש פוסקים שהקלו שכל עוד הבן הוא קטן שאין שייך אצלו הרהור – מותר לאב לרחוץ עמו (ראה ס' הזכרונות להרה"ק ר"צ הכהן מלובלין, מ"ע א. וכ"כ בשו"ת דברי יציב ליקוטים סי' קכג), ואף הרב וואזנר (שם) כתב שאם הבן קטן ביותר שעדין לא שייך הרהור כ"כ, ובפרט כשהקטן צריך לאביו – אין למחות במקילים.
*אך קשה להגדיר גיל ברור עד מתי נחשב קטן לענין זה. יש שכתבו עד גיל 9 (ס' אם אני חומה עמ' שעז), ויש שכתב עד גיל 10 (ס' כיבוד הורים פ"ד הע' לו בשם הגריש"א ע"ה), ויש מי שהגדיל זאת עד גיל 13 (ס' דולה ומשקה עמ' שפו. וכ"כ בס' עלי שי"ח עמ' רלז).*
וראה בשו"ת קנין תורה (ב. לד,ב) ובשו"ת להורות נתן שם שכתבו לימוד זכות נוסף על מה שרבים מקילים בזה, ואכמ"ל.
וראה עוד בשו"ת מנח"י (ד, סב) דבמקום חשש סכנה פשיטא שמותר. |
But don't you think it's inappropriate? You wouldn't be mortified if your six year old tells people in school that he showers with his father? What about self respect?
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 6:23 pm
| amother Slategray wrote: | | But don't you think it's inappropriate? You wouldn't be mortified if your six year old tells people in school that he showers with his father? What about self respect? |
As far as being inappropriate, I don't agree.
What's inappropriate about a young boy and his father? If you're sexu@lizing it, you're welcome to do that. Or a father taking his son to the mikvah-which is very common...? (which BTW we'd never do)
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Trademark
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 6:34 pm
| amother Starflower wrote: | As far as being inappropriate, I don't agree.
What's inappropriate about a young boy and his father? If you're sexu@lizing it, you're welcome to do that. Or a father taking his son to the mikvah-which is very common...? (which BTW we'd never do) |
Just because it's common doesn't mean it's right. I think it's a big problem and it has to be stopped.
It's not about s-xualizing children, it's not appropriate for adults to be completely undressed in front of children.
At 6 years old they will very likely still remember it much later in life.
And like we said it's a halachic problem. And if you have to start nitpicking the exact age when it starts being inappropriate it's concerning. (Just to illustrate if 50-year-old would hit on an 18 year old you would consider it creepy even if it's still within legal limits, and then justifying it that it's legal makes it even more creepy. As if he would do it before but he's just holding back because of legalities)
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Busybee5
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 6:35 pm
| amother Oleander wrote: | | The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (72:13) does state that one may not shower with one's father, father-in-law, bother-in-law and teacher, if they are not minimally covered. (Unless one is needed to help them; a proof that it's a respect issue |
Either way it's common sense! Common decency. It's not something that needs to be learnt, taught or have a source for. It's just gross, sorry.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 7:38 pm
| amother Slategray wrote: | | But don't you think it's inappropriate? You wouldn't be mortified if your six year old tells people in school that he showers with his father? What about self respect? |
Or if the child tells his classmates that his father's part is really big and has hair around it?
I teach non Jewish kids and yes they do say things like that.
It's really unusual and inappropriate in the frum world. Wondering where you and dh are coming from that you both think it's ok.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 7:41 pm
| amother Starflower wrote: | As far as being inappropriate, I don't agree.
What's inappropriate about a young boy and his father? If you're sexu@lizing it, you're welcome to do that. Or a father taking his son to the mikvah-which is very common...? (which BTW we'd never do) |
Because it’s not appropriate for a kid to see his father. Do you ever walk in there at that time? How do you know he’s being appropriate? Because desensitizing kids can be a sign someone is a predator. Why does he want to shower with the kids so badly? Most people prefer to shower alone not with a bunch of kids.
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amother
Emerald
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 7:48 pm
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Starflower, I just want you to know how abnormal it is that your dh wants to shower with your boys. I grew up not frum and even in the not jewish world it is not common. In the frum world it is almost unheard of. Even if it is halachically ok, it is not socially ok.
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amother
Feverfew
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 9:25 pm
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Just say whoops tatty forgot his towel! And this is why you shouldn’t be sneaking into our room. Now go out and remember we don’t ever go into parents room without knocking or getting permission!
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 9:39 pm
| amother Starflower wrote: | As far as being inappropriate, I don't agree.
What's inappropriate about a young boy and his father? If you're sexu@lizing it, you're welcome to do that. Or a father taking his son to the mikvah-which is very common...? (which BTW we'd never do) |
The question is how your dh feels comfortable being naked in front of kids that age.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 9:53 pm
A lot of people here do not seem to understand what life is like with a kid on the spectrum. No joke, if our door is locked my son on the spectrum will try to beat it down until it breaks. It's really hard with ND kids to maintain a real level of privacy. They can just be totally relentless. OP I feel for you. It's hard to deal with their antics.
On the other hand, I'm shocked here how many people are so so sensitive about seeing parents naked. Of course it's not ideal, and past a certain age it's very inappropriate but it happens on accident from time to time with our little kids and we just make it normal. We talk about the our bodies are private and it's not tzinus to see people totally naked etc..but my kids have some understanding that in our family there are different standards than outside the home (like my daughter can wear pj's that aren't tznius but not outside, etc.) And sometimes parents see each other naked when they are changing in their room. To create so much disgust and stigma around it is why people are posting on here that when they got married they were terrified of the other gender and freaked out about relations, etc. You can have boundaries without making it completely taboo!
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Queen Of Hearts
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 9:57 pm
| amother Purple wrote: | A lot of people here do not seem to understand what life is like with a kid on the spectrum. No joke, if our door is locked my son on the spectrum will try to beat it down until it breaks. It's really hard with ND kids to maintain a real level of privacy. They can just be totally relentless. OP I feel for you. It's hard to deal with their antics.
On the other hand, I'm shocked here how many people are so so sensitive about seeing parents naked. Of course it's not ideal, and past a certain age it's very inappropriate but it happens on accident from time to time with our little kids and we just make it normal. We talk about the our bodies are private and it's not tzinus to see people totally naked etc..but my kids have some understanding that in our family there are different standards than outside the home (like my daughter can wear pj's that aren't tznius but not outside, etc.) And sometimes parents see each other naked when they are changing in their room. To create so much disgust and stigma around it is why people are posting on here that when they got married they were terrified of the other gender and freaked out about relations, etc. You can have boundaries without making it completely taboo! |
If my kid walks in on me naked it's not disgusting. But to officially and purposely expose my kid to my naked body is disgusting.
Not because my body is disgusting. Only because it's private. And it's for one person to see only.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 10:02 pm
| amother Purple wrote: | A lot of people here do not seem to understand what life is like with a kid on the spectrum. No joke, if our door is locked my son on the spectrum will try to beat it down until it breaks. It's really hard with ND kids to maintain a real level of privacy. They can just be totally relentless. OP I feel for you. It's hard to deal with their antics.
On the other hand, I'm shocked here how many people are so so sensitive about seeing parents naked. Of course it's not ideal, and past a certain age it's very inappropriate but it happens on accident from time to time with our little kids and we just make it normal. We talk about the our bodies are private and it's not tzinus to see people totally naked etc..but my kids have some understanding that in our family there are different standards than outside the home (like my daughter can wear pj's that aren't tznius but not outside, etc.) And sometimes parents see each other naked when they are changing in their room. To create so much disgust and stigma around it is why people are posting on here that when they got married they were terrified of the other gender and freaked out about relations, etc. You can have boundaries without making it completely taboo! |
There’s a big difference when a kid sees a parent naked by mistake and when it’s done deliberately.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 21 2024, 10:03 pm
| amother Scarlet wrote: | | There’s a big difference when a kid sees a parent naked by mistake and when it’s done deliberately. |
Totally agree! I would never do it on purpose. My kids are just obsessed with me and can't let me take 10 minutes on shabbos morning to get dressed. I literally decided next week I'm going to get dressed before my husband leaves for shul.
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