New draft and frum families making aliyah

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:58 pm

Thank you for explaining. Although I'd think accepting people who might be 30 and not experienced at all but who want to be there is a better choice than forcing 21-year-olds who do not want to be there.

Either way you have to train someone new so I still don't quite understand why they've just rejected so many people. If the Manpower issue is that serious wouldn't they just be taking anyone they can get?

amother

↑ Yarrow ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:58 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

But why does someone have to do one or the other? Or one and not the other? For example, as we have said a billion times already, hesder, there is spiritual AND physical.

again - that is what YOU believe.
and you feel that the IDF is the way to protect physically.

chareidim say thats not the way - we will not join a morally corrupt institution even for this. we do not believe it is necessary, in fact we believe its damaging.
the issue is not physically protecting ourselves its with the IDF specifically - an organization that is anti torah and values at its core.

↑ Aurora ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:59 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

My difficulty is that while there is a lot of work put in to avoiding joining an organization you consider morally corrupt, you are happy to accept their help and protection.

↑ Reality ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:00 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I *asked* the poster. I specifically asked her if they performed brit milah BM and if they had a jewish wedding. I *asked* if it was chareidi Rabbi or conservative or reform Rabbi.

That is why this thread is so insulting! The whole premise of this thread is frum=chareidi!!

Newsflash: chareidim don't have a monopoly on frumkeit!

Don't you see how nasty it is to list the 3 groups of Judaism as chareidi, conservative or reform?

amother

↑ Amethyst ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:01 pm

Reality wrote:

So can you explain please? It sounds like a red herring to me.

bc if everyone here really knew how important limud hatorah was and what it was doing for klal yisroel, then they wouldnt be trying to pull people out of yeshiva who are completely immersed in Torah.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:02 pm

amother Amethyst wrote:

you missed the whole point. this is not about time zones. this is abt how important limud hatorah is, and how we should be doing absolutely everything we can to have MORE ppl learning.

No, this is literally about how the charedi community has found a way to get out of the army. Because its not all about what you say. A fwe women have said that there are so many bench warmers, not real learners. So that is not about having MORE learning. Thats about having non real learning.

amother

↑ Amethyst ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:03 pm

Reality wrote:

thats her bad, she doesnt speak for all charedim I think most ppl know there are MO and DL ppl too.

↑ essie14

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:03 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I *asked* the poster. I specifically asked her if they performed brit milah BM and if they had a jewish wedding. I *asked* if it was chareidi Rabbi or conservative or reform Rabbi.

So anyone who isn't conservative or reform can only be chareidi??
Do you even realize what you're saying?
Thanks for insulting a major part of frum Jewry.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:04 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

The problem is all the benchwarmers I know would go otd if they were to go to the army. As if they are struggling and barely hanging on and figuring themselves out and are getting support to do so.

↑ Reality ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:04 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

No army in the world operates like that. Armies want young people. They need young minds that can be trained to act in a split second. It is impossible to train a middle aged person to do counter intuitive actions.

A soldier is a soldier is a soldier. Once they have that training they can flip that switch back on if they are called to duty again.

amother

↑ Amethyst ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:04 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

everyone loves to stereotype that so many ppl in yeshivas are bums etc but from what I see my husband and literally everyone in his kollel are kulo Torah, for real.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:06 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

Ok, so what if we didnt have any physical army? And we only had torah learners? What do you think the last 9 months would have looked like? I can tell you that bnei yisrael would not be here anymore.

↑ Aurora ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:06 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

The problem is all the benchwarmers I know would go otd if they were to go to the army. As if they are struggling and barely hanging on and figuring themselves out and are getting support to do so.

This is actually an argument for keeping the bench-warmers home and sending the real learners to the army - they will be just fine. Or sending the learners with the bench-warmers so they can help them stay on the derech.

But either way, you are definitely saying that a bunch of those saying they should be exempt because their Torah protects are definitely not helping with the Torah that the protects.

I'm not sure this is what you want to argue.

amother

↑ Yarrow ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:07 pm

Aurora wrote:

My difficulty is that while there is a lot of work put in to avoiding joining an organization you consider morally corrupt, you are happy to accept their help and protection.

and so?

you can say that about every person living under any sort of government (theyre all corrupt)

↑ Reality ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:07 pm

amother Amethyst wrote:

bc if everyone here really knew how important limud hatorah was and what it was doing for klal yisroel, then they wouldnt be trying to pull people out of yeshiva who are completely immersed in Torah.

I understand that.

Then why are they fighting enlisting anyone who identifies as chareidi? You and I both know there is a significant number of chareidi young men who don't learn and only pretend. What is wrong with drafting them?

↑ Reality ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:08 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

The problem is all the benchwarmers I know would go otd if they were to go to the army. As if they are struggling and barely hanging on and figuring themselves out and are getting support to do so.

Newsflash: Then they are otd already. They are just fakers wearing black and white.

↑ someone ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:09 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

ok well if thats ur argument..

trust me dear, when melech moshiach shows up - the gedolim or chareidi world will be the first to show up and fight.
thats not the question.

but DL hold that we are already fighting those wars.
chareidim say - says who? wheres moshiach? and I personally dont believe that the IDF in its current state is the army of moshiach.

You see, now I'm confused. Maybe because there are two amothers here saying similar but different things. But the argument as far as I understood it was that learning Torah is the most important thing in the world and there is no way that Hashem would ever want people who learn Torah to stop learning to go fight. I asked what about the time of Mashiach, and I understand that you are saying that in the time of Mashiach it will be ok to stop learning to go and fight? Just not now because the army isn't the army of mashiach? Did I understand?

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:09 pm

amother Amethyst wrote:

everyone loves to stereotype that so many ppl in yeshivas are bums etc but from what I see my husband and literally everyone in his kollel are kulo Torah, for real.

I am not saying that so many are bums. I know some very serious kollel men. And Im happy for you that your husband is one of them. But if thats what you got out of what I said, you missed the point.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:10 pm

Aurora wrote:

I'm not arguing for either position. I currently don't know enough factual information about what's going on on the ground to have an opinion about the best way to move forward.

about accommodations for chareidim, how many people go OTD, the options, the political end of this issue, the mismanagement and practical aspect of bringing so many people in, if the leftist run army actually wants chareidim in, etc.

I'm just bringing up different points here and there and trying to understand where people are coming from. Very Happy

I'd imagine if I was a person in power to be involved in these decisions I'd be alot more educated.

amother

↑ Amethyst ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:10 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Ok, so what if we didnt have any physical army? And we only had torah learners? What do you think the last 9 months would have looked like? I can tell you that bnei yisrael would not be here anymore.

I dont know that you can actually. BH bnei Yisroel have been here for thousands of years and it is bc Hashem wants it to be that way and Hashem protects us, not bc of the IDF, sorry. misplaced bitachon.