New draft and frum families making aliyah

imaima ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:02 pm

amother Turquoise wrote:

WOW!!! I take massive offense to this.

We are chareidi. We had two boys serve who are now doing multiple rounds of miluim. They went in and came out just as chareidi as they started. I can tell you about many other boys in the same situation. I can tell you about many boys who came out frumer than how they went in.

I can tell you what high school yeshiva to NOT send your boys to, as half my son's class are no longer frum - it would truly shock you to the core if I could say which yeshiva it was. I won't mention the name here, as that's not the point. I can honestly say that after this 'well-known' and famous yeshiva experience, BH the IDF kept my kids on track. Compared to their friends they have incredible middos, they are beyond responsible, keep shabbos and mitzovos without a doubt. They learn every day, when they can, which is amazing.

You are welcome for my putting my kids on the front lines to help protect you so you can make aliyah in peace. At the very least make sure your kids do the same to protect mine, by sitting and learning. Don't let them be the ones riding the light rail and getting iced coffees and mucking around. I have yet to see a group of chareidim or peleg protestors sitting and learning while blocking the highways and messing up everything for everyone else.

Sorry, but I find this very hurtful that people assume that anyone who drafts into the IDF is sub-quality when it comes to yiddishkiet when the actual yeshiva crowd itself is not up to par, let's be honest. There are problems everywhere, in every system, don't blame the IDF.

I feel this so much.
I doubt that so many people really sit and learn.
Many just slack off just because the „belong to the right circles“.

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:07 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Then I have a question for you:
If many chareidi boys go to the army and still remains strong in their Yiddishkeit and in being chareidi then how come most of the chareidi chevra is up in arms against drafting?

Because they protect the status quo plus let’s be real, army and war are scary and yeshiva is an easy cop-out

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:09 pm

amother OP wrote:

Because it’s impossible and a very very difficult to remain frum.

First the entire premise of serving the country for the medinah isn’t in our vocabulary, we look at the country as secular and draft into a secular army would be frightening.

In the DL community they’re prepped from young age to serve after hesder it’s completely different and I guess they all stick together.
Charedei don’t spend much time with secular people at all - two completely different worlds.

I can’t imagine the secular army wants any religious people there just speaking with them their religion is secularism!!

The question wasn’t meant for you but anyway.

It’s a question of time that chareidi will also be prepped from young age to serve, if that becomes a thing after the law is enforced.

For the current teens it will be a transition period but not for younger boys.

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:11 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

OP, I'm a chareidi litvush middle aged bossy b--ch so to say Smile

Try to see if your sons may come on a student visa instead of full israeli citizenship or if they may get the status of toshav kavua. Maybe nefesh be nefesh will have more info.

I have figured that out by now without you saying it 😂

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:15 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

So are you saying that the army as a place where you get stronger in Yiddishkeit? Because if that was so ALL chareidim would run on all four to serve.

Do you know why we say the bracha for learning Torah only once a day?
Because we keep learning Torah all day long, all of us, bot only while learning but also during our other pursuits.
Don’t you think a person in active service who faces all sorts of situations will understand more from Torah (as a blueprint for the way the world is run as opposed to the book) than someone who spends all day in the yeshiva and his neighborhood?

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:18 pm

amother OP wrote:

I hear what you are saying.

Would I put my child’s years of chinuch in danger in exchange for money or whatever the government is offering never!

So I prioritize his yiddishkeit over whatever money or benefits of course as does most of the charedei world

Don’t be ridiculous
Your child will be an adult. Is your chinuch so weak that he won’t be able to hold on to jis values in the world?

If you think he will be safe from any influences without the army, I think you are wrong

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:23 pm

imaima wrote:

It has nothing to do with who is more worldly or not.
And no, the place which limud Torah flourishes and must continue to flourish is in the yeshivot. It certainly ain't in the IDF.
Where you do live? The US or israel?

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:30 pm

imaima wrote:

I can't believe I am reading this. It's so out of time and place as just possible.
It's wishful thinking.
It hasn't worked until today. Why do you think it would suddenly change? Because of a stupid law?

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:30 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Torah at large flourishes in the yeshivot.
When you are talking about individual spirituality, people’s emunah flourishes more when it has been tested in real life.
The argument was that many become frummer than before.

Where I live is irrelevant.

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:31 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Because of October 7? There haven’t been a tragedy of this scale after 1948 or am I wrong?

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:56 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I have an answer too.
We know chareidi were serving much more in the past compared to today.
IDF isn't accommodating for chareidim.

It's a two way street. The chareidi leadership got very comfortable with the status quo, I.e, receiving all the benefits without any of the risks. And that is what they are fighting for.

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:58 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

If you think chareidim will change their way of life and values because of Oct 7th then you are gravely mistaken.

Yet if it was legal for them to work at 21, you don't think thousands would jump at the opportunity? Of course they would. So much for changing way of life and values.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 2:59 pm

Reality wrote:

Yet if it was legal for them to work at 21, you don't think thousands would jump at the opportunity? Of course they would. So much for changing way of life and values.

I personally know a lot of people who are working part-time and are part-time in a yeshivah framework to get a ptur. Granted all of the people I know in that situation, are greatly struggling in life and the Army would be awful for them.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 3:01 pm

Reality wrote:

It's a two way street. The chareidi leadership got very comfortable with the status quo, I.e, receiving all the benefits without any of the risks. And that is what they are fighting for.

I agree, and I also think that we should be kicking out people who are here on visas for years and don't become citizens. Same story.

I do think there's other factors here are like a mistrust of the government actually making the proper accommodations that they want. But I don't think that you're not wrong

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 3:05 pm

Reality wrote:

Yet if it was legal for them to work at 21, you don't think thousands would jump at the opportunity? Of course they would. So much for changing way of life and values.

When I say life and values I meant core values where the Torah living is the center of life. If boys would be able to go and work at 21 (which I have nothing against in principal) of course many would go it. Does it change our core values? My answer is no.

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 3:17 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Which benefits? Please elaborate.

The benefit of living in our wonderful land, freely and openly as Jews.

The benefit of all the social services offered: health care, free/low cost schooling, pension, garbage collection etc. Not to beat a dead horse, but also all the financial benefits listed upthread.

All with a free pass of not having to serve to defend our precious homeland.

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 3:19 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

So then it's not Torah study keeping them from serving. So what core values are you talking about?