New draft and frum families making aliyah

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:01 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I changed my wording and you are right, I should clean my language.

You really are such a nice poster, I felt bad singling out your post! I'm sorry.

In general, I hear from so many chareidi people these arguments. And then I see their sons, and I'm like, this is the boy that can't go to the army? Mr. macher dude who knows about everything and anything?

If the charedim were more honest about who their children actually are, we could actually get somewhere. The small percentage of kulo torah boys from ALL religious sectors can get a ptor if they want and everyone else should serve.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:01 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

It is not impossible at all. And for so many they go in, and stay just as frum, if not frummer than before. We know families that have had sons do hesder and they have had so much time, other than active duty, to sit and learn, that they are stronger than they were when they went in. So please, dont say that its impossible. For SOME it may be hard, but it is FAR from impossible. Very very far.

So are you saying that the army as a place where you get stronger in Yiddishkeit? Because if that was so ALL chareidim would run on all four to serve.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:03 am

Reality wrote:

Actually its *good* you admonished me a bit, I need to clean up my vocabulary Smile

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:10 am

Reality wrote:

The only issue is that the army isn't willing to accommodate chareidi needs. Not in the past and not now or in the future.
It's far too late for medinat israel to try to make a U-turn and correct past mistakes. Now we are on the 3rd or 4th generation of chareidim who have seen their father and grandfather and even great grand father exempted from the army.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:19 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

So are you saying that the army as a place where you get stronger in Yiddishkeit? Because if that was so ALL chareidim would run on all four to serve.

I can read your sarcasm. Why? I know many such boys that strengthened their judaism in the army. I know its not all. But I do know many who benefited so greatly from hesder and army service.
Why is it so unbelievable that this could actually happen? THIS is what is sad. I feel like many charedim are just living on this principle that WAS, but things have changed, but they are still living on that principle, even if it is now out dated.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:28 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

You read sarcasm but if it was a fact that the army as a place to grow chareidim wouldn't have an issue with IDF.
And yes, it CAN happen. Things CAN change. When IDF genuinely accommodates to chareidim gius will be much smoother.
Speaking in reality, IDF will not change it's ways and concept. It didn't happen the last 70 years, it won't happen now.

someone ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:28 am

amother OP wrote:

Because it’s impossible and a very very difficult to remain frum.

First the entire premise of serving the country for the medinah isn’t in our vocabulary, we look at the country as secular and draft into a secular army would be frightening.

In the DL community they’re prepped from young age to serve after hesder it’s completely different and I guess they all stick together.
Charedei don’t spend much time with secular people at all - two completely different worlds.

I can’t imagine the secular army wants any religious people there just speaking with them their religion is secularism!!

So I'm assuming that when you make aliyah you won't be taking any benefits from the frightening secular country? Assuming that you are planning to, that means that you understand that its a more complicated topic than medinah = bad. I encourage you to come with an open heart and with willingness to re-examine things you may have heard or been told, because the chances are that the reality is much more multifaceted and complex.
And please be aware that even if you didn't mean it, your title is incredibly offensive. I hope that my brother in law who has been away from his and kids and the students that he teaches in a yeshiva gevoha for the last nine months is still considered frum even though he is in the army.
The whole issue of the army is extremely sensitive right now, for obvious reasons, so that should be born in mind when discussing it...
Lots of hatzlacha OP! Hope you have a smooth and successful aliyah

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:31 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

But they are trying. Those generals who were attacked the other night in Bnei Brak? They were coming out of the house of a rosh yeshiva who they are working with on formulating the new charedi chativa. I've seen the list of rules that they are going to be following, this is the real deal. The question is whether people in the chareidi world will be prepared to give it their seal of approval.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:39 am

someone wrote:

I hear what you are saying.

Would I put my child’s years of chinuch in danger in exchange for money or whatever the government is offering never!

So I prioritize his yiddishkeit over whatever money or benefits of course as does most of the charedei world

↑ essie14 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:46 am

amother OP wrote:

That's not true at all.
Every chareidi household accepts all the money the government gives them. Subsidized arnona, subsidized healthcare, kitzvat yeladim for every non-army-going child, etc.
Every chareidi yeshiva is fighting tooth and nail for more and more money for non-army-going students.

When you make aliyah you will recieve sal klita, a free plane ticket, rent subsidy, and many more financial benefits. You are not giving up anything. you are taking lots of money and benefits for some perceived threat that you have been told about.
If every chareidi child was educated and allowed to make their own decisions, many could serve honorably and continue to be chareidi if they so choose.
I know many many born chareidim who have not chosen to remain chareidi and it has ZERO to do with the army. Most of them have never served because they were born chareidi. Somehow the chareidi yeshivot they attended for so many years couldn't "keep them chareidi" any more than the army can "make them non-chareidi". It's called free will.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:58 am

amother OP wrote:

OP, you are either smoking some good stuff or you really dont know what you are talking about.
Of course most charedi homes take benefits from the government. And if you thought otherwise, Im not really sure what to think.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:58 am

someone wrote:

The attack was 100% chilul HaShem.
They are trying your say? Why didn't they try harder in the past?
If they haven't reached a solution in the past we won't have a solution in the future. 76 years of experience this country has yet still IDF haven't figured it out?

amother

↑ OP

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 10:59 am

essie14 wrote:

Can’t believe that’s true for everyone

And no I’m reconsidering accepting any assistance if that comes chained to sending my sons to the army.

I have my priorities

Interesting perspective.

I’m an American we have no concept of all of this it’s a foreign concept

↑ essie14 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:00 am

amother OP wrote:

Please speak to anyone you know who lives in Israel. they all take money from the state.
You are woefully misinformed.
You're making aliyah in a month? Please don't keep your head in the sand.
it shouldn't be a foreign concept if you plan to be living here as citizens in a few weeks.
No one told you what benefits you are going to receive?

Last edited by essie14 on Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:02 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

They didn't try harder in the past because they didn't think they actually needed the chareidim. It was all politics and פוזיציה. They thought they needed a small army, so they didn't need chareidim or the hassle that drafting them would be. But now the situation has changed. The whole צבא קטן וחכם idea collapsed, and we have lost thousands of soldiers (some killed and some injured and can't go back to combat). We mamash need more soldiers, fast. So they are trying to actually make it work. The problem is
a. They cried wolf for so long and said they wanted chareidim when they didn't that no one believes them now.
b. The same people who have been campaigning about this (Yair Lapid and his ilk, אחים לנשק etc.) are carrying on with the same rhetoric, which makes it feel like nothing has changed.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:03 am

amother OP wrote:

So you plan to make aliyah and not take anything from the government? Good luck, I really mean that. They help a LOT.
And its not a perspective what she wrote. Its fact as to what every citizen gets. The VAST majority of charedi households are taking all the benefits of being citizens of this country. Not sure why you thought otherwise.
And as for you being an american with no concept of this stuff, Im sorry, that makes no sense. You are making aliyah, you find this stuff out.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:07 am

essie14 wrote:

Not every family takes benefits. Think uYoel Kreuzer and shomrei Emunim.
Reduced arnona: depends where you live. I don't think every city gives this.
Kitzbat yeladim: has nothing to do with army service. Every kid is entitled regardless of army service or not!
Sorry but you seem to think chareidim don't have a free will.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:07 am

someone wrote:

I didn't hear about this. Would love to go hear more.

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:10 am

amother OP wrote:

Oh please. My chareidi neighbors literally know every single subsidy and discount that the government gives by heart.

And some of their husband's and sons have served in the army and they are plenty chareidi still, shocker!