S/o: Seminary is NOT a luxury!

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:31 am

amother Amber wrote:

This is absolutely not true.

If there are 100 girls graduating from high school x, and 95 girls go on to seminary and 5 don't, there is a reason. What is the reason?

If it would be more mainstream not to go to seminary- for example 50 girls went and 50 girls didn't - then the question wouldn't come up as much.

Because the community they are in has made it that they will have a harder time getting married. Because their community has made it that there must be something wrong if a girl doesn’t want to go to seminary. Because their world has made it that a girl who doesn’t go to seminary is not considered equal to a girl who does. I’m curious- if someone would make a poll asking why did you go to seminary, how many women would answer something related to not having a choice or for marriage purposes?

↑ keym

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:32 am

amother Orange wrote:

No, because they're not doing it in order to acquire the BASICS of Judaism. Or rather, I really hope not. They doing what they were created to do, learning Torah on a deep level. Girls were not created for that.

I think it's great to be able to take a year to learn on a deeper level. I just don't think parents should have to bankrupt themselves to do it. I wish we could learn to just pay for what we can afford and not put ourselves into debt for things we don't really really need, which for 99% of girls is an expensive seminary year in Israel.

I actually didn't say an expensive year in Israel. I was talking nuance and shades of grey.

My daughter and many of her friends are going to local Lakewood seminaries. 12-15k. We do it through TTI so she's eligible for FAFSA. And the local Lakewood programs, TTI is a full Bachelor's degree in Biblical Studies not an associates degree.
And many of my daughters friends have worked to cover the cost of the dorm on their own.

I agree that an expensive year in Israel isn't necessary for everyone. I don't agree with saying that seminary has no value, that girls should be pushed to start real life, or that cheaper local options are just as unnecessary

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:33 am

amother Orange wrote:

Right, because girls were born without brains.

Our entire way of life is unaffordable, why pick seminary?

Tuition for multiple kids for 13+ years (without seminary).

Bais medrash post high school for boys.

Summer camp/day camp for our kids.

Expensive weddings for multiple kids.

Expensive housing to live in an area near a shul/other Jewish neighbors.

And the list goes on and on.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:33 am

amother Amber wrote:

I'm looking at girls a few years out of sem. Not 19 year olds.

What about married women? Can you pick them out? Can you pick which married women went to seminary and which ones didn’t? That would be much more telling, and would have much more bearing on this conversation.

amother

↑ Rose ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:34 am

keym wrote:

Why the rush to join the real world?

Why not let her take a gap year like boys. In a cheaper American seminary for 12-15k.

my dd did half day and worked in a school half day. Another went to Touro at night and worked in an office.
Both felt they were better prepared than their full day seminary freinds.
As for boys- one of my ds went from high school to idt- half day college and half day yeshiva
Again felt he was better prepared.
Another ds- went to Mir and lakewood. For him that was the appropriate derech.
Everyone needs to do what’s good for them and not follow the leader because of pressure and thinking that there is only one way.
And hashkafa and learning is always needed, no matter how old or what stage in life. Shiurim are important to everyones.

amother

↑ Rose ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:36 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

Thank you for writing this.
This is absolutely true.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:44 am

little neshamala wrote:

The reason the 5 of the 100 girls did not choose to go to sem is often that they have a strong sense of self, are used to thinking for themselves, and dont feel the need to blindly follow trends that they dont believe are necessary. Its a good thing.
But comments from people like you are what prevent the other 30 girls in the grade who also didnt feel the pull to go, from actually following through and not going.

I do the research.

That's nice in theory, but that's generally not the reason. It's also not generally a financial reason (though its slightly more likely for a girl from a poor family not to go, that's generally not the reason).

It's not "comments from people like me" that's the problem. It's the community norms that are the problem. In general, if a girl or boy is not following community norms parents see that as a yellow flag.

Like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of boys who would be fine with girls who did not go to seminary. Every boy is looking for different things. But once it has become a community norm, people want to know why is she different.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:49 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

Like I said earlier, I have family and friends who went to BJJ and I can definitely pick them out. I see that they are different than women who did not go to BJJ till today (and that includes me). I am over thirty years out of school.

As I was responding to this thread, I was thinking that I have a family member who is in her 70's who would have really benefited from goimg to seminary overseas. Her life would likely have been completely different.

My own mother ah went to Bais Yaakov Yerushalayim (before Reb. David) and it changed her life completely.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:50 am

amother Amber wrote:

According to your research, what’s the reason?

↑ Ema of 5

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:53 am

amother Amber wrote:

Not talking about people you know. We are talking about random strangers. Would you be able to line up five married women in a room, at various ages and stages, and determine who went to seminary and who didn’t?

↑ Queen Of Hearts

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:56 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

You can't.
My friend who attended an Israeli seminary came home preaching why women need more than one wig. P.s. today she is more into gashmiyus than I am.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:57 am

LOL to people who think you can tell who went to sem a decade later. Unless you meant a good education. And even that. A gioret who studied plenty, you can mistake her for someone FFB. A FFB who was a provincial rabbi's daughter and went to public school will have a very different style. What about a BT who went to sem but not the Jewish school? A girl who went to frum school but not sem? No, you can't tell.

amother

↑ Orange ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:58 am

keym wrote:

Okay, that's a valid point of view. You were able to make cheaper seminary work along with grants. My parents did the same for my sisters in Israel (they ended up only paying dorm and airfare - one airfare each because they didn't come home for Pesach - because of some sort of arrangment the not-in-Jerusalem seminary had) and I went to BY Intensive, which was cheap. I wanted to go to BJJ but nothing doing because we couldn't afford it.

amother

Oatmeal

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 10:59 am

Some of the reasons why certain segments of the frum world need seminary are so superficial.
And others are so sad.

The only reason why onr should want to go to seminary is to get a full year of being able to learn for the sake of learning.

This thread is so telling about so much.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 11:02 am

Ruchel wrote:

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

amother

↑ Rose

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 11:05 am

little neshamala wrote:

yes. When my dd went to touro- her high school teachers told her she was ruining her life. That she was choosing the wrong path. The pressure they were putting on her was not normal.
As for the dd that went to half day sem- that was also seen as not so good. She was also pressured to go to Israel.
I hate the pressure from the teachers in high school.
I debated the pros and cons with each child and supported them in their choices.

↑ imaima

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 11:52 am

amother Mint wrote:

The OP is delusional if she thinks seminary is preparing anybody for life.
As an Israeli watching these kids prance around 8 months a year we see what really goes on.
Swiping Dads CC every time they fancy an ice coffee or a good meal out, Being taught by teachers that were never vetted by anybody with credentials and hardly ever need to answer to the parents. And getting high on ideas that they will have to come down from once they arrive back home. All to the tune of 30K dollars.
If that is what US girls (or boys) need in order to learn to brush their own teeth and take public transportation that is very very sad.

You said it well. Anyone who observed sem girls in Israel knows what is going on. A year or sleepaway camp is an accurate description.

↑ Elfrida

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:03 pm

amother Amber wrote:

The question there is whether BJJ gave them something that had a real long term impact on their development, or whether they were that kind of personality to begin with, which is why they wanted BJJ, and why BJJ accepted them.