S/o: Seminary is NOT a luxury!

amother

↑ Midnight ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:14 am

amother OP wrote:

Even if a girl enjoys school, there is a huge difference between attending something by choice and attending something obligatory. (Which is a good reason to ensure that girls are not given the impression that seminary is obligatory...)

DD is not going to college, so her "time for exploration" would be her sem year. Otherwise she'd go straight to work. And if she's going to explore, I'd much rather that be in a frum and supportive environment, not out in the world where exploration has no boundaries...

Women may not have a mitzvah to learn Torah, but their Torah learning is still a mitzvah. And because it enables them to establish a Torah-true home, it will absolutely benefit the entire community.

The fact that donors only consider boys learning is just a reflection of society not taking women seriously.

Yeshiva is also a gamble. In DS's yeshiva there are boys who shmooze all day and eat all night, and boys that learn all day and night. It's not just sem girls. But for some reason it's okay to take the risk with boys and not with girls.

I'd hope that each parent would consider if seminary is right for their daughter and if so which one. That they'd discuss their expectations with their child in advance. That they would provide a reasonable amount of spending money and not enough for her to go out to eat every night. It's only a free-for-all if you set it up to be one.

Yes, this. At a certain point men staying in yeshiva might be about the mitzvah of Talmud Torah. But it's required for every Jew, male or female, to acquire the basics of Judaism, tanach, emunah, hashkafa, halacha. This needs to be done before building one's own Torah-true home. Most people will not get this just in high school, with the pressure of curricula, grades, and requirements.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:17 am

amother Midnight wrote:

Why the H do we send our girls to school then if they don’t acquire those basics there? 12 years of kodesh lessons are not enough?

Last edited by imaima on Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Midnight ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:17 am

Elfrida wrote:

The Beis Yaakov system in Israel is set up to encourage the girls to continue in kitot yud-gimmel and yud-dalad after finishing tichon. That's a combination of continued Torah study and career training. Its becoming more commen for them to also take bagruyiot (out of the school misgeret) during this period.

Dati Leumi girls do bagruyiot at school, and then will often do a year or two of sherut leumi. After that, they might have a year or two at midrasha, before continuing to university or some other training. That year ir two in sherut leumi means they are normally a lot more mature a d motivated when they go midrasha. They've had time with responsibilities in the real world, and if they choose to go to midrasha it's because they really want that learning.

Both groups have advanced torah learning built in after they have finished school.

I'm in a community that largely sends boys to hesder, while girls can choose to go to midrasha "if they want to". And it drives me crazy. I think the girls need more Torah in their lives before they go out into the world. I think serious midrasha should be encouraged much more broadly. If it's so important for the boys, why not for the girls?

amother

↑ Midnight ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:19 am

imaima wrote:

Why the H do we send our girls to school them if they don’t acquire those basics there? 12 years of kodesh lessons are not enough?

I, personally, don't think it is. It's largely spoonfed in HS. I think they need some time to learn in a fully immersive environment, away from the pressures of grades and family life.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 2:37 am

amother Midnight wrote:

I, personally, don't think it is. It's largely spoonfed in HS. I think they need some time to learn in a fully immersive environment, away from the pressures of grades and family life.

What are you paying all these thousands for?
If you cannot say after all these years that your girls got a basis in Judaism and halacha.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 2:40 am

imaima wrote:

What are you paying all these thousands for?
If you cannot say after all these years that your girls got a basis in Judaism and halacha.

Of course they get a basis. But that basis may not be enough to build a Jewish home on.

Do you also ask, "Why did I send my kid to elementary and high school, if they still need to go to college to learn enough science to get a job?"

notshanarishona

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 2:55 am

For the most part, yeshiva’s do not cost anywhere near the price of seminary. Most boys I know stayed in a dumpy apartment shared with a bunch of buchrim, paying a few hundred dollars a month and then tuition in places like the Mir, Brisk, Tomo, etc is extremely affordable and they work with people. Seminaries are the complete opposite, nothing is heimish (except the beds and the meals 😂) and you are paying top dollar for everything including tiyulim with hotel stays, in shabbasos with catered meals, etc .

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 2:55 am

amother OP wrote:

No because sciences is infinitely more complex than running a kosher kitchen.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 3:17 am

amother Midnight wrote:

If you think girls need no more Torah than how to run a kosher kitchen, you've explained why some people think seminary is a waste of time.

Can you please name concrete topics in Judaism that lay a base that is indispensable for running a frum Jewish home and that are not taught in a Jewish school and can only be acquired in seminary?

I think the focus of the community should be not to make seminary a necessity but make school education on such a level that girls are ready for grownup life without their parents needing to shell out 20k more…

amother

↑ Midnight

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 4:39 am

imaima wrote:

I think the essential difference between my perspective and yours is that I think, before a young lady can run a frum Jewish home, she needs to be confident in her own role as a frum Jewish person. She needs to move past a kindergarten perspective on tanach, Judaism, Hashem - and figure out how she, herself, fits in with all of this. Real maturity is required to allow for exploration of these topics. Even better if it's done in an immersive environment away from her current self-identity as "child".

Can some of the more mature subject matter be incorporated into high school? Probably, but it's hard. The environment of high school is not as conducive to real growth and exploration.

As someone who attended a very good high school which did encourage us to think, I definitely saw the difference in seminary between the girls from different high schools. The girls from my high school had a much more mature approach to Judaism. And, still, I found seminary to be invaluable.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 5:00 am

amother OP wrote:

Considering that such a decision is a majorly pivotal one in your future life, I wonder why you count that as an "only." That's a pretty big deal in my book!

Seminary didn't teach me specific things as much as give me the space to think about what my values actually are. And while I can't point to anything as dramatic as you, I'm a lot more confident in the direction of my life thanks to having that experience.

That time to really think before I got thrown into the deep end of life was invaluable.

You said sem gives girls foundation for their future lives. What did you mean? In terms of torah learning? Doing things on their own? Living away from home?
I dont understand what foundational things you are talking about.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 5:03 am

amother Midnight wrote:

But that happens over time, after actually running a jewish home. You cant actually REALLY know how to do that until you are in the thick of it. No way to practice.

amother

↑ DarkYellow ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 5:31 am

amother Midnight wrote:

Seminary is more like 13th grade, an extension of high school.

Iymnok ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 5:38 am

The girls I've seen grow the most from seminary came from weaker religious backgrounds and went to schools that are "not BY" but with BY hashkafos.
I am not convinced that local or in Israel makes a difference for your average in-town BY girl from a good home.
I love it when they come, though!
Some girls really gain. And some girls not as much.
Know your kid and explore the options.

amother

Firebrick

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 5:45 am

This applies mostly to the American seminaries in Israel where there is the "chavaya" concept.
The English seminaries are absolutely not a waste of time. There are no trips, it's not a camp atmosphere, it's a full two year program not 8 months, there is a lot of learning and growth. Staying in a dorm without distractions means a way more focused experience.
The girls in Israeli seminaries also. They live at home, it's extremely intense, focused with training for a profession in the afternoons, no messing around. The girls work hard.
Maybe the American seminaries need to look around at other models and see how to make the experience more of a preparation for life and less of a camp model? It also works out cheaper. Two years seminary in England costs less than 8 mths in Israel. With better conditions - 3 meals a day, Shabbos in dorm etc.

amother

↑ DarkYellow ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 5:50 am

I personally really gained but I would not choose it for my daughters.
Better a local or an American/Canadian seminary that gives college credits so that the girls aren't starting from scratch after seminary.
There is no reason to go across the ocean to learn independence. Second year seminaries have half day learning, half day working.
A 10 day trip to Israel is great. No need to spend 10 months there.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 5:52 am

I'm finding this thread fascinating. In my community, the teachers and mechanchos are adamant that seminary is essential, for everybody, every single girl, and I find their rhetoric a bit over the top. At the same time, I'm also a little sad at how little so many imamothers value seminary for their daughters.

I really believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. I think that higher Torah learning is essential for ALL boys (not just illuyim), while seminary is essential for MANY girls, obviously for completely different reasons.

It would be nice if you we can decide on a case by case basis for whom its essential for and for whom it's a luxury, but since that's hard to do, we don't differentiate and send everybody.

In my life, I see a difference between those who went to BJJ and those who didn't. I have two sisters in law and two good friends who went there, and I see a huge difference in the way they run their homes (and themselves) even today. For various reasons I stayed in a local seminary, and looking back I realize that I DID miss out.