S/o: Seminary is NOT a luxury!

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 5:54 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

But that happens over time, after actually running a jewish home. You cant actually REALLY know how to do that until you are in the thick of it. No way to practice.

The details fall into place over time, by practicing. But where are you going? Where are you heading? That needs to be thought through before you start.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 5:56 am

imaima wrote:

What are you paying all these thousands for?
If you cannot say after all these years that your girls got a basis in Judaism and halacha.

For a basis in Judaism and how to run a kosher kitchen, you don't need more than a year or two of learning, max. What are they doing in school for 12 years?

I want more for my daughter than just the basics.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:03 am

amother Amber wrote:

The details fall into place over time, by practicing. But where are you going? Where are you heading? That needs to be thought through before you start.

What did girls/women do for hundreds of thousands of years before there was any sems? They figured it out. I knew what I wanted out of a home, family, marriage not because of my sem year.

Im just finding the reasons for "needing" sem are not a need at all.

amother

↑ Wandflower ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:10 am

amother DarkYellow wrote:

I personally really gained but I would not choose it for my daughters.
Better a local or an American/Canadian seminary that gives college credits so that the girls aren't starting from scratch after seminary.
There is no reason to go across the ocean to learn independence. Second year seminaries have half day learning, half day working.
A 10 day trip to Israel is great. No need to spend 10 months there.

Tuoro and Stern give a full year credit for seminary, it’s great.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:10 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

If you read a bit of history, you'll see that "they figure it out" stopped working over 100 years ago. Read what Rabbi Soloveitchik has to say on this topic.

amother

↑ Cantaloupe ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:14 am

amother Amber wrote:

It's just rhetoric from the seminary world. The girls coming out of high school know halacha better than the boys. My daughter has learned the details of kashruth and how to run a kosher kitchen in depth. They have also learned in depth from seforim from chumash, Navi and more. She overtakes my boys in almost everything, except for gemara.

If it would really be about foundational growth, then there are other ways to go about it. There can be shiurim, local night seminaries and the like to provide additional post high school education. But it's more a marketing scheme that is focused on promoting additional schooling than it is what is needed for individuals.

Sure, is there a need for some? Yeah. There are those who have gained a strong foodhold in their yiddishkeit yet, and this would give them the means to do it. But does this make it a need for society? Definitely not. And it's crazy how many people sincerely believe that it's a must, to the degree that they accept tzedakah or go into debt for this.

amother

↑ Cantaloupe ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:15 am

amother Amber wrote:

If you read a bit of history, you'll see that "they figure it out" stopped working over 100 years ago. Read what Rabbi Soloveitchik has to say on this topic.

If you look at recent history, you will see that there are many who don't go to seminary from various communities and almost all figure it out.

amother

↑ Cantaloupe ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:16 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Because it's really not a need. Look at how many women don't go seminary and they all lead beautiful Torah'dig lives.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:20 am

amother Cantaloupe wrote:

Because it's really not a need. Look at how many women don't go seminary and they all lead beautiful Torah'dig lives.

You must be talking about the Chassidish community which has a completely different setup. I personally don't know anybody who didn't go to seminary at all so I'm not sure who you are talking about.

amother

↑ Cantaloupe ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:21 am

amother Amber wrote:

The details fall into place over time, by practicing. But where are you going? Where are you heading? That needs to be thought through before you start.

Can you explain what you mean 'where ate you going, where are you heading - and what things need to be thought through before you start'?

amother

↑ Cantaloupe ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:23 am

amother Amber wrote:

You must be talking about the Chassidish community which has a completely different setup. I personally don't know anybody who didn't go to seminary at all so I'm not sure who you are talking about.

More and more girls are gradually not going to seminary, or are doing local/night seminary.

Regardless, let's compare the chassidish community. Other than not going to seminary, what are they doing differently? And does not going to seminary impact them? They seem to be doing wonderfully well in leading Torahdig lives. If anything, they're showing us how it's definitely not a need.

keym ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:39 am

I feel like there are so many conversations happening at once. So it's impossible for anyone to coherently discuss.

I'm kind of breaking down the pieces.

1) is there any value in seminary for girls or should they be encouraged to start "real life" immediately after graduating high school and start working or college

2) why are boys encouraged to take a year to 5 not in the "real world" and go to yeshiva. Across all spectrums. But it's not a priority for girls

3) is the value of seminary ONLY in EY or are cheaper stateside programs of equal value

4) if seminary is a value in theory, can we rationalize the cost at any cost. Is there a value but it's too expensive? What about grants and federal aid?

Personally I see a very strong value in an extra year of intensive Torah learning for girls. But I couldn't rationalize or afford the cost in EY so we looked into local Lakewood options.
I've discovered that local options really "stepped up their game" in terms of high level learning. There are 5 seminary programs in Lakewood alone, not to mention NY and Canada.
They run from 12-15k (plus another 5k for dorming). These numbers seemed more doable to me, especially with TTI and FAFSA.

But I see a value in seminary, the learning, the growth. I don't see a reason to push them to grow up. I think at least 1 gap year is valuable for girls also, not just boys. Just maybe not at the cost of 25-30k. But 15k? Maybe

↑ little neshamala ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:45 am

amother Amber wrote:

You must be talking about the Chassidish community which has a completely different setup. I personally don't know anybody who didn't go to seminary at all so I'm not sure who you are talking about.

Whaaat.
I know so many who didnt go to seminary (in the litvish/yeshivish and JPF communities) and they all did totally fine. Got married, building beautiful Torahdik homes. You could never pick them out of a lineup, that they didnt go to sem

amother

↑ Pink ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:47 am

amother Cantaloupe wrote:

Ive alwaya said this
What is the chassidish community doing so much better with their chinuch system, that their girls dont need seminary but for our girls "its a must"?

Or have we just drunk the koolaid?

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:48 am

little neshamala wrote:

I've had a few sons in shidduchim over the years and I've gotten hundreds of resumes. The percentage of girls who didn't go to seminary is tiny, and I could indeed probably pick them out of a lineup.

↑ little neshamala ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:51 am

amother Amber wrote:

I've had a few sons in shidduchim over the years and I've gotten hundreds of resumes. The percentage of girls who didn't go to seminary is tiny, and I could indeed probably pick them out of a lineup.

Really.
You think you can look at 100 married women and pick out which ones didnt go to seminary?

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:52 am

amother Pink wrote:

It's a completely different system.

What is the Chassidush community doing so much better that their boys are ready to get married at 19 and our boys aren't ready till 23?

It's not just the seminary part/boys getting married earlier part - the whole system is completely different.

As for seminary- we expect completely different things from our girls than Chassidish communities do. One small difference is that we value independence for our daughters while the Chassidish community doesn't. And there are many other differences.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:53 am

little neshamala wrote:

Really.
You think you can look at 100 married women and pick out which ones didnt go to seminary?

If I got to know them better - yes.

When I ask information about them- yes.

It's not bad, just different. Some boys are looking for those girls and some boys aren't.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 6:58 am

amother OP wrote:

Of course they get a basis. But that basis may not be enough to build a Jewish home on.

Do you also ask, "Why did I send my kid to elementary and high school, if they still need to go to college to learn enough science to get a job?"

If 12 years of schooling, including four intense years of high school, doesn’t provide enough of a foundation with which to start a Jewish home, there is something wrong with our system.