Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

ora_43

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 9:37 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

The reform is The Key. No wonder Bagatz and the establishment went beserk when Yariv Levin presented it.

I didn't like that reform. Too far in the other direction.

I also don't think the Knesset is entirely blameless in the situation with the Court. The Knesset is incapable of thinking past the next five seconds. It creates a power vacuum that the Court filled. Because honestly at some point, someone does need to step in and say "guys, this situation is ridiculous, and it's blatant discrimination."

The Court isn't flexible enough in accepting compromise. The Knesset isn't firm enough to set red lines. The two feed into each other.

JMHO.

amother

Oxfordblue

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 10:47 am

I did not read this thread but my chareidi cousin called me the other day to talk about this.

I didnt bother to argue with her because we see this very differently but just from speaking with her, I realized that this issue is not resolvable. There is literally no middle ground.

She spoke about how those running the army are actively putting soldiers at risk with their decisions so why should the soldiers allow themselves to die because of the horrible government decisions (this I actually agree with her about.)

She also said her ancestors were there before the medina even started so if they were there first and then the zionists came, why does she have to join their army and follow their rules. Who made them in charge? (This doesnt hold water in my opinion because chareidim are part of the government and they take plenty of government services so you cant have it both ways)

She also said that this is all political amd its just a way to take down the government and call for new elections. (I agree that it is partially the case but I also think the army really does need more people)

She also said the concept of defending the land is not based on any halachic sources and the country we have now is not like the times of Dovid Hamelech so that whole milchemes mitzvah argument doesnt apply. (I dont agree with this.)

I dont know what is going to be. Its a mess.

paperflowers

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 10:59 am

essie14 wrote:

Watch: IDF soldier completes Talmud tractate at the Rafah Crossing

https://www.israelnationalnews.....92162

Everyone needs to watch this. EVERYONE!

Somehow, learning and serving in the army is do-able! Imagine that!

Oh, but they have the wrong kippah so I guess their learning isn't worth anything. Certainly it's not protecting themselves or their fellow soldiers because that can only be done by Chareidi boys learning in a cushy beit midrash. Silly me.
/s

That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

Success10

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:08 am

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

I like your cousin.

Fox

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:11 am

garfield wrote:

I understand the Chareidi view that the yeshivos and learning are the spiritual iron dome, and do agree with this, but I think it would be a far stronger argument to the chiloni public if the yeshivos were to operate on a ‘war footing’, so to speak. Cancel bein hazmanim, do a mandatory rota of learning around the clock ( shifts), as a lot of the fighting happens at night, match each yeshiva with a unit and each learner with a personal soldier (I understand this happens already as individual schemes, but perhaps it needs formalising?) and show how seriously the chareidim take the responsibility of being the spiritual iron dome. And publicise it so the chilonim can see the chareidim showing up.

If you have an exemption, it’s a serious responsibility, not a ‘get out of jail free’ card. And if someone can’t meet that level of demand, then I’m sorry, I don’t think they should be exempt from the IDF.

In terms of not joining the IDF because the environment is not spiritually good enough- so work with the army and find a solution. Isn’t this a time of pikuach nefesh?

I hadn't planned to comment on this thread because I don't live in Israel, and my conversational Hebrew is not adequate to truly keep up with news that hasn't been filtered through English-language parties.

However, Garfield echoes something I've thought for a long time. Dovid HaMelech had a specific formula for managing Israel's military: one-third of the army in combat roles; one-third in support roles; and one-third learning. Are today's leaders -- both secular and religious -- so much smarter than Dovid HaMelech?

Of course, as Ora_43 points out, there's plenty of wrong to go around, with political maneuvering and intransigence on all sides.

Still, I pray for an IDF from which it's more likely that a soldier emerges more religious rather than less, and I pray for yeshivas filled with "soldiers" whose role is seen by all to be equally vital to that of someone on the front lines.

amother

Dill

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:30 am

As someone whose husband has been fighting for over 200 days and kept up with his learning as best as he could throughout … if there were charedim in the army my husband would be able to serve less. He would gladly switch places with a yeshiva boy.

We need more soldiers. Where are they coming from if not the charedi world? The reservists families are falling apart physically, emotionally, and financially. Our soldiers are out there 24/7 starving without phones to call their worried wives and kids while yeshiva boys are on bein hazmanim with cushy schedules and claim they are contributing equally.

No one asked for this war. But now we need you. How can you not answer the call? Imagine someone is drowning and sees a charredi man and says give me your arm. The man says don’t worry I’m davening for you. No, right now the country is drowning and we physically need your arm!

chestnut

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:43 am

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

Milchemes mitzvah doesn't apply? Would she be ok living under Hamas rule instead of the Israeli govt??

Aurora

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:43 am

amother Dill wrote:

This. Quite honestly, there is a shortage of men.

Why is the blood of the yeshiva boys redder than that of everyone else?

amother

Jasmine

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:47 am

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

This is the way it works when you live someplace and there is a change of government. You either leave, or you accept the terms of the new government. It's irrelevant who was there first - especially 80 years later.

essie14

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:01 pm

amother Dill wrote:

🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂
From a soldier mom
💙💙💙💙💙💙💙💙

amother

Oxfordblue

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:02 pm

Success10 wrote:

I like your cousin.

I like her also but I dont agree with all her points.

Honestly the ideological differences cant be resolved. The problem is the practicality of it all.

Who is going to stop Hamas and Hizboloh from destroying Israel? Theres no good answer for that. Unless Israel starts "committing war crimes" according to International Law, the death toll will be astronomical and frankly more than Israel can handle.

Like I said. No good answers.

HarrietW

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:13 pm

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

No good answers mean that you leave all idealistic theories behind and get to work

ora_43

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:20 pm

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

And it's not just this one issue. It's a whole mindset of treating the country and the government like someone else's annoying hobby.

It's not like every other branch of Israeli society is full of constant good citizenship. But the attitude of like, "well I didn't choose this government, so I don't have to do anything" or "if I don't like the government's decisions, I should be able to just opt out" - it doesn't lead to healthy countries.

IDK. I used to be optimistic about the future, thinking, sure, we couldn't function as a society if hareidim were more than 15% of the country - but obviously, as the hareidi population grows, its behavior will change. People won't be so afraid to participate in society once they're like a third of society.

Now, I'll admit, I'm more concerned. There are issues here that go deeper than just fear of exposure to secular norms.

Ultimately, I'm still going to focus on disturbing anti-democratic lunacy in my own branch of society. But I do think that on a nationwide level, we need to stop kicking this particular can down the road.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:35 pm

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

Of course this issue will never be resolved. Its not possible when there is no middle ground.

In terms of this being something to pull the government to new elections, that is going to happen no matter what, when this awful war is over.

I think your cousin may be living under a rock Sad

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:37 pm

amother Dill wrote:

First I want to thank your husband and you and you family for being apart from one another for such a very long time. All the strength to him and his unit and to all of the chayalim.

I think you are the first post that states it outright in practical terms.
If there were more chaylim, more of the men that have been gone for so long, would be able to get off and have some time with their family.

ora_43

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:50 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

If there were more chaylim, more of the men that have been gone for so long, would be able to get off and have some time with their family.

Yup.

In dh's last round of reserves there was super-high turnout. It meant everyone got to go home for 3 days out of every 10. It was amazing.

If they'd had 20 more soldiers, it could have been 5 of every 10. Or maybe at that point you just shorten the service and everyone does one month, not two.

People saying the army gets by with the soldiers it has. Yeah, by grinding them into the ground. By pulling brilliant, talented young men out of cyberdefense and intelligence and sending them to the front lines (and if anyone thinks that's not going to come back to bite us...). The situation is not good. Realize that if you want to explain to someone why hareidim shouldn't serve in the army, you shouldn't raise the idea 'the army has enough people already' unless you want to lose them immediately.

someone

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 1:07 pm

amother Dill wrote:

First of all there are no words that are sufficient to thank you and your husband and your whole family.
And thank you for posting this. This is the whole story in a nutshell. This is the answer to everyone who has been saying that the army doesn't want or need chareidim and its all politics. That might have been the case five years ago, but everything has changed, and we have to change as well. It is beyond my comprehension how people are carrying on with the same philosophical arguments and discussions that we've been having for years as if nothing has changed. At the end of the day its very simple - more soldiers means that the soldiers we have will be spread less thin.

Aurora

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 1:15 pm

We are not smarter than Dovid Hamelech, but he also lived during a time of open prophecy, the Beis Hamikdosh, miracles, and so on.

But I've been noticing how so many Charedim here have greater faith in the IDF than the Dati Leumi.

Others on the thread: the IDF needs chayalim!
Charedim: Nope, they've got it covered.

If the Charedim truly believed in Yad Hashem, why haven't they stepped up the hours learning? Why are they letting any bachurim out of the Beit Midrash?

Further, this isn't just a war, this is also fighting against those who kidnapped Jews & to rescue the hostages:

"If a man is found to have kidnapped a fellow Israelite, enslaving him or selling him, that kidnapper shall die" (Devarim 24:7)

What, the bachurim are too holy for pidyon shevuyim?