Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

↑ DrMom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:53 am

amother Broom wrote:

Nothing to talk about until the IDF and politicians sort themselves out and figure out exactly what they want.
Real change comes from letting go of rhetoric and commitment to unity.

Again, you exempt the Charedi community from any responsibility in this discussion.

Real change comes from being constructive. Innovations like Nahal Haredi, for example, are constructive solutions.

Many in the Charedi community are looking for constructive solutions. They want to be part of the solution.

Others are just looking to be obstructionist, and writing themselves out of the discussion entirely. "Nothing to talk about until the IDF and politicians sort themselves out..." Guess who is missing from that statement?

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 8:36 am

DrMom wrote:

Not at all. The chareidi community can also let go of their rhetoric and commit to unity.

I think chareidim should serve, at least for a certain amount of time. It's impossible to ask though if they can't keep halacha there according to chareidi standards.

↑ DrMom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 8:42 am

amother Broom wrote:

Everybody who serves does so for "a certain amount of time" so I'm not sure what that means.

What are the gaps between current conditions in all-charedi units and keeping halacha according to chareidi standards?

Are these "charedi standards" uniform for all charedi sects?

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 11:09 am

amother Broom wrote:

Is the army set up in a way that frum people can follow stringent halacha?
No.
So there is nothing to talk about.

THIS THIS THIS
There has been efforts not too far in the past in a program called Shachar Kachol. Rabbi Ram Raavad was working on it together with someone named Shkeidi. In the end Rabbi Raavad quit as what was promised for chareidim soldiers like glatt kosher food and other things didn't materialize.
There are erev rav people in all positions, including IDF.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 11:31 am

My FIL (who I never had the chance to meet as he passed away decades ago) served in the army in 1948. Not only him but *many* chareidim did it that time.
He was sentenced to military jail twice as he refuses to lechalell Shabbos when it clearly wasn't pikuach nefesh.
DH and has two brothers did not serve.
FIL apparently swore he won't let this sons to be drafted and made enormous efforts to have them stay out of the army.
There were plenty of families who had the same scenario.
Together with this the concept of kollel men full time was introduced in BY.
Chareidim families it that time made great efforts to have their sons-in-law in kollel, supporting them and those who could bought whole apartments for the couple (housing market was very differently in those days) and wife was the bread winner.
DH says medinat Israel, with it's anti-chareidi attitude and zero will to adapt to chareidim conditiond actually bred generations of chareidim until today.
Just like Pharao bred Moshe Rabeinu in his lap.

↑ Aurora ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 11:52 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

So all the other Yidden are now Pharaoh?

amother

↑ Blonde ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 12:20 pm

You realize they the high court ruling has accomplished exactly what it wanted to by turning chareidi and non chareidi against each other. Now the whole country is busy bashing each other and no one is asking how come the impartial investigation of the idf on and before Oct 7 never happened and even more so no one is watching while they are quietly arranging our defeat.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 12:32 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

This is one of the things I was referring to when I said the IDF and politicians have to sort through what they really want. Till they do they can't expect millions of people to dance to their tune.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 12:39 pm

DrMom wrote:

I'm not here to solve the details. I'm saying what I think is fair.
Is the army prepared to have a much larger nachal chareidi?
Chareidi standards are pretty much uniform.

↑ the world's best mom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 12:47 pm

amother Catmint wrote:

Whenever this comes up, I say the same thing.

If Charedim want to say that Torah protects, they should stand by their word. All Iron Dome installations will no longer fire $40k missiles to shoot down Hamas and Hezbollah and Iranian rockets flying towards Bnei Brak, Modiin Illit, Charedi areas of Bet Shemesh and Yerushalayim, Tsfat, etc. Yad Hashem is protecting you, so you don't need all the hishtadlus of the kofrim to keep you safe.

Dovid Hamelech sent half the Jews to fight the wars and half to learn. We need to protect ourselves physically and also spiritually. Saying to stop the iron dome is as ridiculous as saying to stop letting people sit and learn instead of serving in the army.

↑ DrMom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 1:26 pm

amother Blonde wrote:

The issue of charedi conscription has been simmering for years if not decades.

The Supreme Court issued a ruling now because one of the many exemption extensions expired recently.

Also, now the IDF was considering extending reserve duty age cutoffs by 1 year to address manpower shortages. This shined a strong spotlight on the fact that one sector of the population was not serving in the IDF at all, whereas other men were separated from their families for months and months.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 2:04 pm

amother Broom wrote:

I'm not here to solve the details. I'm saying what I think is fair.
Is the army prepared to have a much larger nachal chareidi?
Chareidi standards are pretty much uniform.

IDF isn't prepared nor are they willing to deal or change anything for chareidim.
They weren't then back in 1948 when they actually could have made them army for more chareidi friendly.
If they haven't succeeded after all these years...

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 2:13 pm

amother Broom wrote:

This is one of the things I was referring to when I said the IDF and politicians have to sort through what they really want. Till they do they can't expect millions of people to dance to their tune.

IDF doesn't want chareidim
*Every politician*, including Lapid and Golan know they won't succeed to get chareidim to serve. THEY KNOW IT. But politics is a game and theater play so they have to have something to argue about.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 2:16 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I totally understand why so many people feel the way that you do. And I think everyone agrees that the army didn't do anywhere near enough over the years to make it possible for chareidim to serve. And it's certainly true that the whole shivyon bnetel campaign was always a cheap political campaign and the army didn't really want or need chareidim.
But things on the ground have changed, and I think its important to understand that. There is a genuine lack of soldiers. The chareidi population is b"H growing fast and is a much larger percentage of the population. This isn't another cheap campaign (although there are people who are using it as one), it's a genuine problem. This time the army really does need chareidim and I really believe that they are willing to make the changes necessary to make that happen. Its hard to give people another chance when they have let you down in the past but I would strongly encourage everyone to do so. The way the army are talking about recruiting chareidim is different from anything I remember in the past.
And I'm not sure the chareidi population understand how much anger and frustration there is among the rest of the people, including very very chardal people (myself included). I have three brother in laws who have been on miluim since Simchat Torah (who by the way are all in full time learning or teach in yeshivot) and another two who have been in and out. There are families in my yishuv whose father has been on miluim almost non stop for 8 months, some of those families have 7 or 8 kids. We have to increase the number of soldiers to lessen the burden on the people who do serve. And the only way to do that is through cooperation.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 2:21 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I just heard an interview with Rav Raavad. Him and Shkeidi are part of the team that is now trying to create a framework for chareidi soldiers.