Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

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↑ yc

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 2:36 am

amother Lime wrote:

Yes it is, and no amount of learning can combat that.
The learning of all the young men under the draft age should be enough zechusim for everyone. The learning of grown men is not necessary. To all of those against this ruling - just say it like it is: you dont want your husband, son, brother, etc.. in harms way. No one does. But the idea that someone has to fight till age 50 because someone is learning!?! As I said, there are plenty of ways to earning zechusim for the soldiers. The learning of charedim doesnt have to be one of them.

um - what? I couldn't let this go under the radar - the learning of grown men is not necessary?? That is so untrue! wow! terrible thing to say! shock

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 2:54 am

amother Lime wrote:

I don't understand this. Apart from the fact that I disagree, there is no reason why gown men won't be able to learn as well as serving in the army. Just like in the DL world. I know countless men who learn full time for years, but they did army service at some point and in some kind of format (hesder, hesder merkaz, regular, shlav bet, there are many options) and then went back to learning. A month or so a year they do miluim and then go back to learning. And yes, during the war many of them have been serving now for months, but whenever they are let out they will go back to learning. This black and white way of presenting things, as if its either the army or learning is incorrect and stam buys into the divisive rhetoric being used by people with bad intentions.

camp123 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 3:14 am

There is so much hate and bias when it comes to this topic if only a compromise could be made and we could live in shalom together.

We need the serious learners to stay learning. And trying to draft them will be counter productive anyway.
There are plenty of charadi yeshiva bochrim either not learning of learning only a few hours a day. Even rav shach agreed that these bochrim should go to the army. the problem is the charadi world are scared of them becoming non charadi, but this can easily be dealt with it there are charadi battalions and rabbanim involved.

the charadi false propaganda has to stop. This is what they tell the average person but the people in the know, know it's just propaganda.

We don't need an army if everyone was frum and learning Hashem will protect us.....uh, everyone agrees you need to do hishdadlus. If there were literally no one to fight the charadim would stop learning and fight. During the Yom kippur war charadim all signed up to fight. If the existence of 6 million Jews were at risk they would even eat trief food if it meant protecting them from certain death.

You can't be frum in the army. The dati leumi community have proved this wrong. The army isn't what it was like even ten years ago. It's become almost a frum institution, all the meat is glatt. Yes, there is still some way to go and obviously charadim can't join mixed units. But, if the charadim set up their own battelions they will be able to change things from within.

Arabs and secular Jews don't serve why should charadim , no one trusts Arabs to serve, a minority of secular Israeli's don't serve and they are people who don't care about the country or are drop outs. Not every charadi will serve. It's a stupid argument.

The army don't need charadim. They might not need all charadim but they need some. Why should fathers who own businesses and have kids have to be called up for so many months while 19 year old charadim can be seen roaming the streets. The kids should be doing something productive anyway if they can't sit and learn for ten hours a day.

If the secular and dati leumi world would stop suggesting that everyone is drafted and the army and charadim would work together to draft charadim in a way that ensures charadi values are upheld things could get better peacefully. But the charadim need to stop using the above arguments that no intelligent person accepts. Extremism on both sides and an inability to see someone else's view is going to destroy us quicker then our enemies can.

↑ essie14 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 3:56 am

amother Blonde wrote:

It's not just ppl learning Torah who can defer service. Its also university students but they are not being criticized because it doesn't fit the narrative

Completely untrue.
My sons could not apply for university until they completed army service.
You need an actual ptur first and then you can go to university.
Where did you even get this idea?

↑ salt

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 4:35 am

essie14 wrote:

Completely untrue.
My sons could not apply for university until they completed army service.
You need an actual ptur first and then you can go to university.
Where did you even get this idea?

Maybe she's talking about atudaim. But that's not the same as yeshiva students.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 4:37 am

essie14 wrote:

Completely untrue.
My sons could not apply for university until they completed army service.
You need an actual ptur first and then you can go to university.
Where did you even get this idea?

Anyone who had a ptur of army service may apply AFAIK.

↑ Iymnok ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 4:50 am

The biggest problem is the hateful secularists who gave an agenda that they are trying to force. Working quietly, within the Chareidi and army systems would achieve better results faster.
This ruling is irresponsible.

↑ Success10 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:19 am

Iymnok wrote:

Yea, I don't think they really want Chareidim in the army anyway. But even if they do, they just accomplished the opposite of that.

amother

Babypink

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:24 am

essie14 wrote:

Completely untrue.
My sons could not apply for university until they completed army service.
You need an actual ptur first and then you can go to university.
Where did you even get this idea?

My husband is in college now. He made aliyah at 21 and never received a call up or anything. He has no ptur.

↑ essie14 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:33 am

amother Babypink wrote:

My husband is in college now. He made aliyah at 21 and never received a call up or anything. He has no ptur.

Because he's an oleh who made aliyah after age 18.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:33 am

amother Babypink wrote:

My husband is in college now. He made aliyah at 21 and never received a call up or anything. He has no ptur.

Guess he was too old at 21 Smile

amother

↑ Blonde ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:56 am

amother Jasmine wrote:

First, let's differentiate between deferring for a year or a few, vs deferring indefinitely.

There are plenty of DL yeshiva students who defer army service until they feel they're spiritually ready to go to the army. But then they go. Many of them even do more than the required amount of service. That's not what we are talking about.

As far as university students, that just isn't true. I've never heard of university students deferring their service. Most Jewish university students in this country begin their studies when they are in their twenties. There is a program to do university through the army, but it's a small program, you need to qualify for it, and afterwards you owe the army extra years of service in return for their financing your schooling. So, no, what you said about university students is neither accurate nor relevant.

This is what I was told regarding my boys when we made aliyah. That if they go to Yeshiva or start university they can defer army service, they just need to be on top of it. A ptur is not available until 26 or 2 kids even for chareidim. Obviously we did not send to university so I never checked it out. My first child got a ptur and my second son was drafted because he was not on top of his deferment (he mixed up his dates) and he didn't want to pretend medical issues. BH it's working out for both of them

amother

↑ Blonde ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:57 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Most University students are not chareidi.

Either way, we're all benefitting off some of these students when they complete their studies and start working in healthcare, engineering and so many other ways which helps society.

I would say we are all benefitting of Torah Study as well

heidi

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:58 am

amother Jasmine wrote:

You're right. Unfortunately the charedi party representatives are rather stubborn. I don't see them being open to negotiating anything.

this morning a charedi rabbi was heard saying- our boys will not serve. any boy who serves it's like he's being mechallel shabbos.
These people are crazy
Let them all run away
The Torah of our DL tzadikim is amazing and will protect us

↑ DrMom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 6:08 am

Iymnok wrote:

I feel like there has been a lot done already to make the IDF accessible to Charedim. But there needs to be reciprocity and flexibility. The IDF isn't necessarily comfortable for chiloni people either, but they serve.

amother

Tanzanite

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 6:22 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Do you lock the doors at night to keep intruders at bay?

Do you or your husband work for an income?

Why is it that when it comes to the state of Israel to people believe that they don't have to do hishtadlos?

Let's discuss this. Explain your reasoning.

I agree and I dont lock my door and my husband and I both dont work:) you happy?

↑ Success10 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 6:40 am

DrMom wrote:

It's not about comfort. This isn't about air conditioning or better mattresses. It's about ensuring the boys maintain their level of religiosity. They are not willing to compromise on that. I'm not sure why they should.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:06 am

Success10 wrote:

I'm saying again that I know first hand from people who are in very high up positions that there are serious efforts being made by the army to create conditions that are suitable for chareidim, ad hasof. The army has the responsibility to do that and to keep to it. But when chareidim say we won't join the army under any circumstances, no matter what, that doesn't help. Both sides have to understand the other and try and find a solution together

DVOM

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:07 am

Success10 wrote:

I'm not sure why you believe they have to?

I have several family members serving in Netzach Yehudah.

I have another who serves in 'something having to do with computers' (he won't say more 😉). Because his is a desk job, he is able to travel back and forth easily every day. He lives in Bnei Brack.

Another didn't want to be in the army itself and did sherut leumi working in a hospital. Again, he didn't need to live on base and was able to come home every night to his wife and kids.

All wonderful frum men.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:23 am

someone wrote:

Look for example at the hesder yeshivot. They didn't say no no no no, we can't let our boys go into the army. They sat with the heads of the army and came up with a format that fits the needs of both sides. Is it perfect? No. But when there are problems, and there are, they sit with people from inside the army and try and iron it out. And there are other programs in different formats but the same idea - working from the inside and not opposing from the outside.

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