Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

↑ Reality ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 4:58 pm

amother Floralwhite wrote:

Just saying that this is why we did not make aliyah although we have been living in Israel for close to 20 years. I didn't trust the government and now I was proven right. B"H my now 16 year old son can't be drafted in two years.

That being said, I daven for the chayalim daily and I cry when I hear about any of them being hurt.

Do you realize how tone deaf your post is to the women whose children are serving now? How do you think they feel reading this?

↑ DrMom ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:02 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

Puleeeese. The ancient model were all tzadikim. Those who weren’t weren’t allowed to join the army. Todays army is full of mechalilei shabbos and gilui arayos, whether they are tinok shnishbas or not. They have as much shaychus to the “ancient Jew with a sword and a Sefer” as a pumpkin.

What a repulsive thing to say about the fine young men and women who are risking their lives to protect their fellow Jews. I hope you do serious tshuva for smearing their good name.

amother

↑ Floralwhite

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:04 pm

Reality wrote:

Do you realize how tone deaf your post is to the women whose children are serving now? How do you think they feel reading this?

I believe the army should be voluntary to all.
They made their choice and I daven for them all the time. But I am happy with my choice even if you throw tomatoes.

amother

↑ Blonde ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:07 pm

Reality wrote:

Do you realize how tone deaf your post is to the women whose children are serving now? How do you think they feel reading this?

As a mother of a married son serving in the idf I am touched that she cries and davens for the chayalim. We also thought about the draft when making aliyah but ultimately decided that we would cross that bridge when we come to it. I'm proud of both my sons for doing their part to help the country and I of course appreciate any and all prayers Smile

↑ Reality ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:08 pm

amother Floralwhite wrote:

I believe the army should be voluntary to all.
They made their choice and I daven for them all the time. But I am happy with my choice even if you throw tomatoes.

But it's not so we need to deal with what is not what we imagine.

Isn't your "fix" temporary? What happens to your grandsons? Are they non-citizens forever?

↑ Reality

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:10 pm

amother Blonde wrote:

I obviously don't have a problem with that. It was the juxtaposition with her paragraph before of thank G-d it's not MY son. That can really be hurtful to many, even if it isn't to you.

amother

↑ Winterberry ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:15 pm

DrMom wrote:

Are you referring to someone specific? Whom?

I don't know if their sons and daughters served, but the vast majority of the Supreme Court justices themselves served in the IDF, judging from their bios:
https://supreme.court.gov.il/s......aspx

Furthermore, just last week the Knesset drafted a bill delaying retirement for IDF reservists. This was necessary to address manpower shortages in the army arising from the war. It is the second such extension since the war started.

It is a massive chilul Hashem that this is necessary when there are thousands and thousands of able-bodied young men sitting around and not contributing to the war effort.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/.....lash/

You need a serious crash course in what constitutes a Chilul Hashem. A secular Israeli government who boats of a transgender Eurovision winner, violates kashrus, has an army that is openly mechalel shabbos without need and is rife with much licentiousness including kareis prohibitions is the very definition of chilul Hashem, not those sitting and learning Hashems holy Torah, the purpose of our nation’s (and Eretz Yisraels) existence.

amother

↑ Papayawhip ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:18 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

Finding a spouse in the army, even having relations is not the bolded.

Why are you making such assumptions?

amother

Azure ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:25 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

This is a terrible day for the state of Israel and the Jewish people.
They are really lighting themselves and the state on fire. I am scared for the danger that they have brought on all of us living here now.
A terrible day.
They are removing zechisim that are keeping us safe.
To me these people are really reshaim mamash.

I am throwing up from your comment.
Horrible.

amother

↑ Azure

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:31 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

never never agree.
not one boy or man should stop learning.
not one

You mean their hats should not stop learning?
I am chareidi but I have to tell you that my non chareidi family who learn in hesder and serve in the army are worth much much more than fakers.
Learning can be done in everyday situations. And who says that only learning is what is important? The world stands in THREE things
Torah, avoda, gemilus chassadim
And Torah doesn’t mean only learning- it’s means living your life everyday and night according to the Torah guidelines.

↑ DrMom ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:39 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

And the first massive hafganah has already been announced for this Motzai Shabbos. If the goal of the AG and the Supreme Court was to wage war and destroy any vestiges of achdus they have certainly succeeded.

Odd that you don't see the Charedi population as having any responsibility for their actions.

↑ someone ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:41 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

So don't let them succeed. Don't buy into the hyperbole and the lies. Understand that behind the politics and the people pushing their agenda there is a real issue that has to be resolved. We can fix the problem together, there are enough people who want to find a genuine solution that it's possible. No one is trying to destroy the world of Torah. No one has to choose between learning and serving in the army. The world is much more complicated than the soundbites we are all being fed

amother

↑ Gold ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:43 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

Sorry, but this is wholly inaccurate. You can't isolate yourself and demand preferential treatment, and then turn around and blame others for lack of achdus.

If anything, the achdus card is now in the court of chareidim. Up till now, the govt provided support in a show of achdus/acceptance. But now, in dire times, when chareidim are asked to step up and show achdus in return, they're acting all entitled and self-serving.

How much more self-serving can we be acting? We are like toddlers, making demands, expecting our demands to be met on a silver platter, and when we don't get our way, we throw tantrums. We lack awareness of how we come across. And honestly, it doesn't give a good name for our Torah learning. If this inappropriate behavior is the outcome of all this Torah learning, the supporters are left wondering why on earth are they supporting it.

It is time to take our fingers and point them to ourselves. We are the ones to blame here for the lack of achdus, not anyone else.

amother

↑ Gold ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:45 pm

DrMom wrote:

Odd that you don't see the Charedi population as having any responsibility for their actions.

Entitled people never take responsibility for their actions. They expect others to take the responsibility for them - hence the label 'entitled'.

amother

↑ Watermelon

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:47 pm

DrMom wrote:

Odd that you don't see the Charedi population as having any responsibility for their actions.

You mean REactions. What did you think the reaction would be? Just meek acceptance with maybe a few peaceful protest speeches and editorials over what the Chariedi world considers an extensional threat to their existence? Which group in Israel would take what they believe to an extensional threat to their existence laying down?

yc ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:51 pm

I heard that R' Elyashiv zatzal said that the torah world in Israel does not need the gov't funding to survive, but is משפיל itself to take from the gov't as a זכות for the country. I actually always wondered about this myself as the funding seems so paltry compared to the בזיונות the chareidi community has to go through to fight for and receive it on an ongoing basis. Also, I do think many take their responsibility in torah learning very seriously as well.
as an aside - it is documented that Bar kochva was physically very strong, but he lost all his supernatural strength when he made a treaty with the kutim (?) (who were apikorsim) and stopped relying completely on on Hash-m for his strength and victory. He was left with only his physical strength which was never enough to win against the romans. It was only through Hash-m's miracles that he succeeded in war against them. Also when he did this, Rabbi Akiva stopped supporting him. What I do glean from this is that even with the most amazing capable army, weapons and intelligence, we don't stand a chance without Hash-m's help.
as far as the demonstrations - There is a (leaderless) group making all the noise that you hear and then you think its mainstream chareidim doing it. This is a group with no real leadership, hence their inappropriate actions. They don't listen the mainstream gedolim even though they look as frum as they come. I know people like this personally and believe me, its not pretty. These are lost souls we like to call "tinokos shenishbu bein hachareidim"

amother

↑ Gold ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:58 pm

amother Watermelon wrote:

That's what is so troubling here. With all the Torah learning and with all the Gedolim involved, how can any leader not recognize that the current setup is unsustainable. Regardless of the war, our generations have grown in leaps and bounds BH! To expect so many in society to be supported instead of contributing can't be done until Moshiach comes. Are we now in a place where the blind is leading the blind?

This isn't about Torah learning. It's about leaders clinging to a flawed system and not wanting to admit that it needs to be reset. They have the opportunity to reset it in ways that still preserves the core Torah learning, while making some necessary changes. And it all can be done in line with the Torah.

If we truly follow the guidance of the Torah, there wouldn't be this negative outcome of unsustainability. The fact that it's financially not feasible is evidence that there are flaws in the setup. The Torah is so Emes and so True, that truly following it would not lead to this mess.

So it begs the question, how much longer will we bury our heads in the sand while cloaking ourselves with presumptuous righteousness.

↑ giftedmom

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:58 pm

someone wrote:

But that isn't a long term solution. And there are all kinds of other financial sanctions that can't be fixed with fundraising abroad (I heard today that avrechim who haven't been in the army won't get subsidized maon, that's a massive deal)

This is why Satmar and others never relied on the govt

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 6:05 pm

amother Papayawhip wrote:

It needs to be endorsed by the gedolim.

Being that you and I are both part of the chareidi world, we know that it might affect shidduchim, their kollel opportunities after army service, school options for their kids etc.

You can't just say that boys who want to serve should do that. That's what they could have done until now!

They need support, encouragement and acceptance.

Individuals have many times been given the blessings of gdolei hador- but it was individuals and not a public statement or an endorsement for every one.
I'm totally against in trying to push every chareidim into army service and at the same time I do think that those who aren't really happy in the yeshiva amd dream of doing something else should not be discouraged to join IDF BUT they need a safe space for chareidim. I doubt IDF will accommodate them.