Vent about non-dorming mesivtas

amother

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 8:20 pm

I have two boys in two local mesivtas. Neither one allows dorming until 11th grade, and that's one of the many reasons that we were interested in these yeshivas. (I think it's important for boys to at least witness some daily family life at this age, and I'm so grateful that my boys thus far are able to do that while in a yeshiva that is a good fit for each of them.)

I was inputting next year's schedule (of off-Shabbosim, bein hazmanims, etc.) into my calendar, and it was really bugging me. Most times that they're off for several days, the "off" time starts right after shacharis one morning and ends late at night -- either right before night seder, or right before maariv. This would make some sense for dorming yeshivas -- the boys are sleeping there overnight, let them daven shacharis in yeshiva before they leave for home, and daven maariv there once they get back, before they go to sleep in yeshiva anyway.

But they don't dorm there! Which means that the day that bein hazmanim starts, we need to drive them there in the morning and pick them up an hour later after shacharis. And the day that it ends, we need to drive them back for maariv and maybe a bit of night seder, and then pick them up afterwards. Yes, we have carpools the rest of the year, so what's one more day? But we choose our carpool drives based on when we can somewhat-conveniently drive a carpool. Just because someone can "drive home on Monday nights at 9:30" doesn't mean that they can easily drive home right after shacharis on Monday morning at 9 am or whatever. Which means swapping a million carpool drives (and I live in a community where the younger kids have carpool as well, so it's really not so easy to make random swaps).

I'm writing this because I can't imagine what the rationale is behind this schedule, unless it's an example of a school just doing something because "that's how it's done" without thinking of their specific situation and if it actually makes sense. Or of some vague sense that it's good to start a zman with davening and end it with davening (??), without taking into account how much stress they're adding to their parent body.

But really I'm writing this because as I was inputting the dates into the calendar, one of my boys was sitting there listening to me emote about how this makes no sense, and my dh discretely let me know that I should stop, that it's not good to be so negative about it in front of him. And he's probably write. So I'm emoting to you instead. It's such a seemingly small thing, nothing major in the greater scheme of things, but it's bothering me. WHY????

amother

Topaz

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 8:30 pm

Is this a new thing for this year?
My son does not dorm and his off Shoobos starts the night right after Mariv until Shachrus.

Did you speak to the school to ask them what is going on?
Did you get the right schedule or the one for dorming boys?

amother

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 8:34 pm

amother Topaz wrote:

It's for two different schools. One I've been living for the past two years for my older son, the other one my younger son is starting next year. The schedules are slightly different but comparable. And yes, it's the right schedule. Everyone kvetches about it.

Is it just in our community? I assumed other yeshivish mesivtas do the same thing -- maybe I'm wrong?

amother

Slateblue

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 10:21 pm

Don’t know where you live but in Lkwd it’s the exact opposite . An off shabbos or bein hazman begins late afternoon usually after mincha and they go back to yeshiva for the new zman or on Monday morning after shacharis .. I don’t understand vice versa at all unless the boys are dorming.

UQT

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 10:38 pm

In Lakewood, if you’re lucky enough to get a school calendar, it’s merely suggestions. Expect you kid to call you a day or two before the marked pesach bein hazmanim to let you know the zman has now ended.

mha3484

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:28 pm

You said neither allows dorming until 11th. How many dorm in that age group?

amother

Peru

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:57 pm

I have teen girls this age.My boys are a little younger. The shachris part makes sense the Mario part doesn't. Your sons yeshivah probably want to make sure the boys daven with a minyan. Start the vacation with shachris in school then you get the vacation to yourself. Done vacation make sure the kids daven Mario with a minyan on their last day back

amother

Oxfordblue

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 12:22 am

My son is in a yeshivish non-dorming yeshiva.
Generally an "off shabbos" starts Thursday afternoon (like around 5 PM before English) and they return for shachris on Sunday.

Rarely (twice a year?) They have an extended off shabbos, which starts Thursday at noon, and then they have to be back for Tuesday shachris.

amother

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 10:50 am

So this is really abnormal? I thought it was just my older son's yeshiva, but once my next son's yeshiva did the same kind of thing, I figured it was universal? So strange.

All or most of the boys dorm in 11th grade and 12th grade. None of them dorm in 9th and 10th. The boys are all local or board with local families.

mha3484

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:01 am

Right that's what I thought they don't want to make separate calendars for each grade so they make it for the whole yeshiva but they take the dormers into account first. Then they add the younger grades in after.

amother

Ivory

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:12 am

amother Slateblue wrote:

Exactly this, but no Lakewood mesivtas offer dorming.

Peersupport

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:25 am

Why can't 17 year old boys take a cab on the few days a year this happens?

They are almost adults, they can make their own arrangements how to come home from a local yeshiva once in a while.

amother

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:30 am

Peersupport wrote:

Why can't 17 year old boys take a cab on the few days a year this happens?

They are almost adults, they can make their own arrangements how to come home from a local yeshiva once in a while.

Ninth and tenth graders are 14 and 15. And it's not a few days a year, it's every off Shabbos, and before and after each bein hazmanim.

The point is, it's nice that for half of the yeshiva, this works. Why can't they let two grades that don't dorm out the night before?

amother

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:33 am

mha3484 wrote:

So in other words, there's no real reason? They make it so that it works for half the yeshiva and just throw the others into the same boat?

My girls are in a school where the administration really thinks about each thing that they do, making sure that it makes sense...so I find it so annoying that I feel like the yeshiva's administration seems to just say "Eh, they'll figure it out" and never think about what they're saying makes sense.

And if it's just because the rules are primarily for the older boys, then why don't they say that coming in for Shacharis is optional for the younger boys? Why do they make a big deal when a parent asks if their child can daven shacharis near their home instead?

I dont' buy the "they want to make sure the boys daven shacharis with a minyan" argument. These boys are davening over the whole bein hazmanim with a minyan. Making us drive them in to yeshiva just for this minyan seems so arbitrary.

mha3484

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:35 am

I feel like a school cant make everyone happy all the time someone will always get prioritized over someone else. To make two separate calendars and schedules for 9/10 and 11/12 just doesn't make sense. Also what if your have a son in 9th and 11th so you need to have two different schedules for one family? Its never ending.

amother

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:37 am

mha3484 wrote:

But it doesn't matter. You need to have a carpool for your ninth grader anyway, and you need to bring him home the night before so he can go to sleep. So having two calendars doesn't make things any harder for you, even if you have a younger and an older boy...It actually makes things slightly easier, because you still have to drive your ninth grader in that morning, since your eleventh grader was already sleeping there the night before.

Just put a note at the bottom that ninth and tenth graders are allowed to daven the morning shacharis at home, rather than in yeshiva. No need for a whole different calendar.

amother

Pearl

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:39 am

Ask parents who have had 9th and 10th graders recently if this is what actually happens.

amother

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:49 am

amother Pearl wrote:

Ask parents who have had 9th and 10th graders recently if this is what actually happens.

One of the yeshivas I'm talking about is the one that my son, who is going into 11th grade, is in. It was true for him for two years.

The other one I don't have a son in yet, but my husband seemed to think it wasn't a big deal. I'm assuming the men who make these schedules think the same way?

amother

Oxfordblue

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 11:55 am

Speak to the yeshiva before next year's schedule (2026)

Again, my son is in a local OOT yeshivish mesivta and my son's off shabbos starts either noon or 5 PM, and they have to get back for shachris.

gdgirl

Fri, Jun 21 2024, 2:37 pm

that schedule makes sense for dorming.out of towners need that schedule for arranging travel..but if all boys are local, why do they need so many off shabbosim..do the 9-10 graders dorm each shabbos?