Non-Jewish camp, chizzuk needed

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 8:02 am

amother Babyblue wrote:

Honestly, I think everyone here who has told OP how awful this is should send her $100 towards her camp fund. Put your money where your mouth is and don’t just make her feel bad.

so personally I didnt comment yet. I have no money right now, cant afford to send my own kids to camp. but im not working this summer so its not an emergency. even so, if the OP started a GoFundMe, I would donate $20 even though I am broke, because to me this is an emergency. OP should not send her chidl to a non jewish camp. I have no money but even so I care about OPs child and desperately want to avoid the non jewish camp for him. OP please set up a GoFundMe. we will all help.

amother

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 10:36 am

OP here - a few things I need to clarify:
-This is day camp, not overnight. He is not ready for overnight.
-He is 100% strong in his yiddishkeit, baruch hashem. This is not the issue. Respectfully, my post is ONLY about dealing with antisemitism.
-No other camp can come close to matching the price, we have explored all the avenues, this is not going to change. I appreciate the generosity of people who have offered to help but it is too late to change plans and even if it weren't we would need to raise an enormous amount of money.
-This is not about priorities. I can't make my medical bills and rent bills and tuition bills go away. We live extremely frugally.

Thank you to those kind women who have reassured me. I didn't want to put in my original post but my husband and I are both BT, the insinuation that being around non-Jews is not ok is really hurtful.

watergirl

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 11:54 am

amother OP wrote:

OP, I am also a BT but my family kept an interesting kind of kosher growing up. I went to a non-Jewish daycamp and my mother always made sure to send me with whatever I needed that day so I would not feel left out. So when we did a cookout, she sent me with kosher hot dogs and marshmallows to put on a stick over the fire. I went to this camp for 13ish years and loved it. I know it was a very different time.

Re: antisemitism, I think the best way to combat whatever he might be on the receiving end of, chas v'shalom, is to inculcate him with a ton of Jewish pride. Explain to him that Hashem always said there will be people who don't like us, as we say in the Hagaddah, and today it's very scary because people watch tv and think they are hearing the truth. Tell him Hashem loves him and his parents love him.

If you have not already been doing so, start now enforcing and reinforcing the rule of having an open door of communication so he knows he can tell you anything.

The truth is, it's unlikely his campmates will cause issues at that age. If it happens, it's more likely to come from the staff who watches tiktok and thinks it's the real news. Hopefully he knows he can come to his parents if there are any issues (see point above).

Where I live, there are many frum people who have to send their kids to non-Jewish schools and camps for various reasons - special needs, educational or behavioral differences, etc. Not all the kids here go to Jewish camps for so many reasons. Others send because it's a GOOD CAMP or a specialty camp that has something their kid would like. You DO have a "special needs" issue - you can not afford any other option and I know you are doing your best.

Some of these responses were tone-deaf. I did not read your OP thinking you meant an overnight camp, I read it right away that you were sending him to a day camp. People, seeing as money is the reason for all of this, it's the easy presumption to make that she's talking about day camp. The cost of non-Jewish overnight camp is quadruple the cost of our frum camps.

I'm sure your son will be more than fine this summer.

Sending love and support.

amother

Diamond

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 12:29 pm

tichellady wrote:

That’s true of every scenario in the world

It’s true. Every scenario in the world can have scary consequences. We make our choices and do our best. We can’t protect our kids from every threat every second, but we’re still Jewish mothers and try our best to avoid the really scary stuff. This is the really scary stuff. I wouldn’t do this op. I’m sorry you’re in this situation but this has to be a top priority. Save money anywhere else you can, reach out to oorah, chabad, your local rabbi and anyone else you can think of but don’t do this to an eight year old. Not in 2024.

amother

Diamond

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 12:34 pm

amother OP wrote:

Being around non-Jews is okay. A lot of orthodox Jewish adults spend most of their day at work in an environment where they’re the only Jew. It doesn’t have to be harmful spiritually or otherwise. Spending most of the day with only non-Jews when you’re eight years old is not okay. That could maybe have worked thirty or forty years ago but not now in this world.

giftedmom

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 12:38 pm

amother OP wrote:

I don’t think any mother including myself can say that their kid of any age is 100% strong in their Yiddishkeit. You are naive and this may cost you dearly.

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 1:42 pm

I grew up out of town, the cheder I went to had a parent and student body of BT. There were very few FFB families there. The other kids mothers used to ask my mother for parenting advice bc they didn't know what was normal for frum standards.

I also remember that before 1st grade the only camp option was the local Y which was Jewish but probably reform. I went only for preschool, not even K. I remember how they didn't wash for bread or make brochos and how me and the one other frum boy always pretended we needed the bathroom before shabbos party so we could wash and eat the challah.

This was 30 years ago, way before social media. Respectfully, because you're a BT, you might not be realizing the implications of this decision. There's a reason so many of us are advising against it. It's not because we ourselves don't work with irreligious or non Jewish people. It's because we know the importance of chinuch, especially at this age. Especially in camp. (I understood it was day camp)

amother

DarkGray

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 2:05 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

Honestly, I think everyone here who has told OP how awful this is should send her $100 towards her camp fund. Put your money where your mouth is and don’t just make her feel bad.

I would donate but OP is not looking for that. She wants validation that this is ok and her child wont suffer any antisemitism.

He probably wont suffer antisemitism but it probably isnt ok for his spirituality. They've done studies on this. The primary factor for why kids marry jewish is going to Jewish schools and camps.

I feel really bad that this feels like the only option. I hope next year you can make plans earlier and get financial aid so he can go somewhere jewish.

amother

Diamond

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 2:18 pm

watergirl wrote:

I always love your answers watergirl so when I saw you posted here I had to read your opinion. I disagree about some responses being tone-deaf. Let’s say you ask me about a great investment you’re excited to make and you just want to know if I’d suggest you do it at the beginning or the end of the next quarter. I’m a top investment manager at a top firm and that’s why you’re asking me. I happen to know it’s a very risky investment and you could end up losing your savings. Do I just answer the question and tell you when to sign on the dotted line? Or do I warn you to stay away from what could lead to a huge financial loss? I’d choose the second option and I wouldn’t call it tone-deaf. I’d call it looking out for a sister.

Cheiny

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 2:32 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

Honestly, I think everyone here who has told OP how awful this is should send her $100 towards her camp fund. Put your money where your mouth is and don’t just make her feel bad.

The premise of your post is pretty ugly and I believe you owe everyone here an apology for even suggesting that people are trying to make her feel bad. We are concerned about the very serious and very real implications and consequences of her decision if she should go through with sending her young child to that camp. Many of us have seen disastrous results from choices like that and are trying to save her the heartache that could very possibly result down the road.

And what makes you think we wouldn’t be willing to chip in for such a fund? It seems you have a very presumptuous and very low opinion of many of the imas here…

amother

Ivory

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 2:45 pm

OP, based on what I am hearing from multiple non religious relatives, it is very possible your son will face some degree of anti semitism, although some states are worse than others.
If you are looking for chizzuk that he won’t- that is probably not chizzuk that anyone can definitively give you at this point.
To me a concern bigger than antisemitism from fellow campers is if it comes from staff, as even if you prepare him well for that he will be limited in what he can do in that case.
Also, for those saying they went to non Jewish camps and were fine religiously- it is a very different world than it was even ten years ago. I think we are all aware of this.
As a parent, caring for your child means recognizing this.

I’m not understanding why it’s too late to change your plans if the money is raised.
Even a huge amount- there’sa group here who May care enough about your child to come together with the funding.
It seems to me that even if it’s raised you want your child in this camp?

amother

DarkViolet

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 2:52 pm

amother OP wrote:

My parents were BT as were many in my community, and I witnessed firsthand the disastrous results of choices made by many BT parents who were well intentioned but did not have the background or experience to see the results of those decisions years down the road.

OP, if you don’t trust the many Imamothers from all walks of life, many of them BT’s or children of BTs like myself telling you that an 8 year old being thrust into a non Jewish daycamp for a long summer will be disastrous for his spiritual future, at least recognize that you and your husband have very limited experience in this area. Please defer to a respected, trusted Rabbi (assuming you and DH have one- if not please get one ASAP) who can give you guidance based on years of experience and real world results before risking your child’s spiritual future.

amother

Sienna

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 2:59 pm

The responses on here are so hysterical. Where I live (pretty normal suburban tristate community) it is not at all abnormal for parents to put their kids in local art camps, nature camps, soccer camps, town rec center camps, etc. during the summer. Often the Jewish camps don't run the full summer and people supplement all the time with local camps and programs. Usually its just a week or two but it's not unheard of for a kid to go to for longer. For example, I sent my son to rock-climbing day camp for a week because he loves rock climbing. The idea that he is going to go off the derech and intermarry because he spent six hours a day for five days rock climbing with a group of six-year-olds is absolutely insane.

In my community too, there are very affordable city-run day camps in the local parks. Some are truly great and families go on waitlists to attend.

A whole summer in a non-Jewish day camp may be challenging but it entirely depends on the camp. The responses on here make it sound like OP is throwing her child out to the wolves. I assume the camp she chose is sensitive to their family's needs and will make sure dietary restrictions are met and her child is well-taken care of, included, and respected. If that's not the case, I would be concerned about the camp not because it isn't a Jewish program, but because its a bad camp.