What will happen if I melt the butter instead of

↑ Amarante ↓

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:43 pm

amother OP wrote:

there are many chees cakes with crusts calling for crushed graham crackers, tea biscuits, vanilla cookies - these cookies are all crisp without marge or butter and the recipe says crush and miz with butter and its really good. is this what you mean soggy and not good?

trying to understand

These are a completely different type of "crust" as they are relying on the already cooked crumbs and butter hardening together.

If you are making "raw" dough for cookies or crusts, it is a completely different process as the different ingredients interact.

Baking is really a form of chemistry as it relies on the interaction of specific amounts of specific ingredients and specific temperatures.

That is why for best results for baking you need to follow the recipe exactly versus savory food in which you can generally improvise and get good results if you know a bit about cooking.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:47 pm

amother OP wrote:

Those kinds of crusts are not pie crusts, we are talking about something entirely different.
Cheese cake crusts you describe aren't supposed to become flaky. You mix broken cookies with fat. Those cookies have already undergone their baking in the first place a while cookies. They don't change really changed much in the process.

↑ Amarante ↓

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:55 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

I think the best way to learn and really understand is try.

When I was in school for food and nutrition, they had us bake cookies -same recipe, but one with Crisco, one oil, one butter, one margarine, one overworked margarine…….

It was one of the most meaningful cooking classes I ever had

Slightly off topic but Alton Brown (the cooking scientist) had a segment years ago called Three Chips for Sister Marsha

He baked almost identical chocolate chip cookies with bread flour, AP Flour and Pastry flour - all delicious of course but very different results.

https://www.foodnetwork.com/sh.....rsha2

Most baked goods specify the type of shortening to use because they have very different results and also interact differently. Shortening tends to produce a puffy type of soft cookie which is what many commercial cookies are like the Loft style cookies.

Type of sweetener also makes a big difference - brown versus white sugar versus molasses versus honey

amother

↑ OP ↓

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 1:30 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

OP, listen to Amarante. She's extremely knowledgeable in cooking and baking.
And always measure exactly and follow the instructions in baking. It's an exact science.

I am listening. Smile

I understand that what I want to make is the actual crispy/flaky stuff that those recipes call for to mix with melted butter but how come these tea cookies and vanilla cookies dont have marge or butter and they are still crispy? or maybe they do have? better check...

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 1:35 pm

amother OP wrote:

I am listening. Smile

Trust me, almost all baked goods have some sort of fat in them. Check the package.
The only thing I can think of is Swiss roll and meringue.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 1:54 pm

amother OP wrote:

https://betterbakerclub.com/butterless-cookie-recipe/

does she know what she is talking about?
goes against what everyone is explaining here.

This is a cookie receipe.
Your initial question was if you could melt the butter when instructions called for flour and unbutter to be mixed, right?
We are talking about entirely different soughs and pastries.

amother

↑ Coral

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 2:52 pm

amother OP wrote:

https://betterbakerclub.com/butterless-cookie-recipe/

does she know what she is talking about?
goes against what everyone is explaining here.

She knows what she’s talking about.
There are some great chocolate chip cookie recipes with oil instead of butter / margarine. You can try both the oil and shortening versions and see which chocolate chip cookie you like better.
You’re making pie crust or crust for cheesecake. You can’t do that with oil.
There are two types of crust. One is made by crushing cookies, mixing them with a little melted butter and pressing the mixture into the bottom of the pan. One is made by rolling out a dough made of cold butter or margarine mixed with flour and a few additional ingredients such as a little ice water, a drop of vinegar, an egg yolk. You have to follow the dough recipes exactly. Each is slightly different. My favorite has an egg yolk, lemon zest and sugar in it but you could say that’s a shortbread crust, not a traditional pie crust which has only a pinch of salt for flavoring and no egg.

↑ Amarante ↓

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 4:07 pm

amother OP wrote:

https://betterbakerclub.com/butterless-cookie-recipe/

does she know what she is talking about?
goes against what everyone is explaining here.

You seem intent on negating any input other than using oil will be fine in a recipe that calls for solid shortening.

Pie crusts made with oil will not have the same characteristics as a crust made with solid shortening of some kind. There is literally no decent baking recipe that uses liquid oil for a pie crust because it will not be flaky in texture and almost everyone judges a pie crust by its flakiness

No one is saying that you can't make a very good baked product with liquid oil. Chiffon cakes are deliberately made with oil and have a luscious texture and taste.

The issue is that with baking you need to follow the recipe which includes the specific ingredients to get the result that was intended

The cookie recipe that you posted contains this additional information. Again, there are cookie recipes that use liquid oil but in general they are adapted for oil and produce a result that is different than using a solid shortening.

What is your reason for subbing ingredients - if you don't want dairy, there are pareve shortening that will produce the result the recipe intended or there are recipes that were developed by experienced bakers that were made for liquid fat.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 6:36 am

I didnt see these responses till now.

I dont remember the article I posted and dont have time to read through but I think my point was to get a crispy cookie she recommended melting the butter which I thought the opposite was true.
maybe I am confusing crispy with flaky?

anyway, I cut the butter and just want to know if I am doing it right,
when mixing the dough afterwards I can see small patches of butter in the dough- is this how it should be?

by the way - I am making this for a pie crust but its a digestive cookie recipe crushed and then mixed with butter. I ddnt want a soft mushy choc chip cookie. these seemed right.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 6:50 am

amother OP wrote:

The flour and cold butter/margarine should come together and become one so to say. I think you need to rub the flour and fat together a bit more. It doesn't need traditional kneeding but it needs to come together a bit more. Then put up the dough in cling film and rest a while in the fridge.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Jun 10 2024, 7:29 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

was afraid to mix too much or the butter will melt.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 8:50 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

https://bakesbybrownsugar.com/.....lach/

Once the dough is rolled into a block, you'll see specks of cream cheese and butter throughout the block. When the dough is baked these pieces of cream cheese and butter will melt, release their water and cause the dough to separate into layers.

from here it seems the small patches of butter should be noticeable, though combined?

also, it says the butter and cheese will release water in the oven making layers.
is this also whats needed when making a dough for a pie crust?
many cookies have cut butter but they are not flaky.
I am confused as to what flaky means.

a gefen pie crust is flaky? the cookies used to make it is from dough with cut butter.
these rugelach are also flaky but they are 2 diff textures?

↑ Amarante ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 8:56 pm

amother OP wrote:

https://bakesbybrownsugar.com/chocolate-rugelach/

Once the dough is rolled into a block, you'll see specks of cream cheese and butter throughout the block. When the dough is baked these pieces of cream cheese and butter will melt, release their water and cause the dough to separate into layers.

from here it seems the small patches of butter should be noticeable, though combined?

also, it says the butter and cheese will release water in the oven making layers.
is this also whats needed when making a dough for a pie crust?
I am confused as to what flaky means.

a gefen pie crust is flaky? the cookies used to make it is from dough with cut butter.
these rugelach are also flaky but they are 2 diff textures?

Have you ever eaten a really good croissant or worked with very good puff pastry.

The technique is the same as you don’t want the butter to melt but you want it to be distributed between the layers.

Making puff paste you roll out once and then in the freezer and do this several times to create the layers.

Pie crusts aren’t flaky in the same way as they have a crispness. These kinds of rugelach and puff pastry are flaky but soft.

The recipe is from Rose Berenbaum Levy who writes amazing baking cookbooks. Her Cake Bible is indeed just that with very detailed instructions on how to get the perfect result. Even if you don’t make the specific recipe, just reading her instructions would make you a better baker.

And there really is nothing as delicious as rugelach dough made with cream cheese and butter as it is a sublime dough.