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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
amother
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 Sun, Jun 02 2024, 8:52 am
| amother Hotpink wrote: | You can validate and support your child and still teach them good middos. Would you validate and support your child if they felt they had to hit or be mean or bully another kid?
Also I'm sorry but giving a snack bag to a 12 year old is so patronising.
I see this sorry of behaviour with some of my kids classmates and I always wonder whether it comes from their mothers. Really I despair. Its just so mean. |
Validate and support in this context means allow them to validate their feelings that they feel uncomfortable in this situation and support them in not making them play with people that feel uncomfortable.
Sorry I missed the 12, my daughter is under 12 but the rest wouldn't change.
No it 100% doesn't come from the mothers. I let everyone into my house shmooze and make them feel comfortable. Just because I feel bad for the other child and believe me it hurts me to tell tham that (and I usually ask my daughter to be kind and allow her in but I don't force) doesn't meant that I can shirk my duty as a mother.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 8:57 am
| amother Rainbow wrote: | Validate and support in this context means allow them to validate their feelings that they feel uncomfortable in this situation and support them in not making them play with people that feel uncomfortable.
Sorry I missed the 12, my daughter is under 12 but the rest wouldn't change.
No it 100% doesn't come from the mothers. I let everyone into my house shmooze and make them feel comfortable. Just because I feel bad for the other child and believe me it hurts me to tell tham that (and I usually ask my daughter to be kind and allow her in but I don't force) doesn't meant that I can shirk my duty as a mother. |
Why is your daughter uncomfortable around so many kids? What does uncomfortable even mean? And sorry but encouraging your kid to be the bully or the mean one is not doing your duty as a mother. She doesn’t have to love each kid. If they aren’t being inappropriate or hurting her then it’s bad middos to reject them at your door. You aren’t doing your duty as a mother teaching her good middos and not being selfish.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 9:01 am
| amother Wandflower wrote: | | Why is your daughter uncomfortable around so many kids? What does uncomfortable even mean? And sorry but encouraging your kid to be the bully or the mean one is not doing your duty as a mother. She doesn’t have to love each kid. If they aren’t being inappropriate or hurting her then it’s bad middos to reject them at your door. You aren’t doing your duty as a mother teaching her good middos and not being selfish. |
She is not uncomfortable around most kids. Just one.
I am 100% not encouraging my daughter to be a bully. I have consulted experts in the bullying field and safety field (psychologists)
I have no responsibility towards the other kids however badly I feel for her. My responsibility is to my child. Someone that is so kind to others and hurts her kids in the process is not kind at all.
You on the other hand have no problem bullying online and telling me I'm encouraging my daughter to bully (which I am not) so I'm not sure how your daughters are turning out...
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 9:04 am
| amother Rainbow wrote: | She is not uncomfortable around most kids. Just one.
I am 100% not encouraging my daughter to be a bully. I have consulted experts in the bullying field and safety field (psychologists)
I have no responsibility towards the other kids however badly I feel for her. My responsibility is to my child. Someone that is so kind to others and hurts her kids in the process is not kind at all.
You on the other hand have no problem bullying online and telling me I'm encouraging my daughter to bully (which I am not) so I'm not sure how your daughters are turning out... |
My daughters are amazing thank you. Group settings are perfect for someone they don’t like. My kids are known as the kids that would never hurt anyone and I’m proud to be their mother. And of course not embarrassing someone in public which is what happens when you turn a girl away while all the kids in the house see it happening, is kind of big deal in the Torah.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 9:05 am
To expand on this- I totally understand that you simply weren't educated about and that's okay! We're in this world to learn!
When a child learns that her body and time belong to someone else. She HAS to play with someone that makes her feel uncomfortable then she no longer has faith in her signals when her body tells her that the person she is with is uncomfortable.
I teach, model, and emulate to my children loving anyone, but throwing off their radar systems and forcing them to play with people that make them feel uncomfortable can unfortunately be one of the worst parenting mistakes that people make.
I always encourage her to play with her for a shorter period of time rather than tell her to leave. My idea I actually gave her was to ask to play with her at her house instead so she can leave after an hour without making it uncomfortable. She has done this before.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 9:06 am
| amother Wandflower wrote: | | My daughters are amazing thank you. Group settings are perfect for someone they don’t like. My kids are known as the kids that would never hurt anyone and I’m proud to be their mother. And of course not embarrassing someone in public which is what happens when you turn a girl away while all the kids in the house see it happening, is kind of big deal in the Torah. |
Who says all the kids in the house see? Why is this in public? That's on you for assuming that.
No one says her friend that makes her uncomfortable is not amazing. I actually really like this girl and like her family- but it's not my call to make who she plays with.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 9:40 am
| amother Rainbow wrote: | To expand on this- I totally understand that you simply weren't educated about and that's okay! We're in this world to learn!
When a child learns that her body and time belong to someone else. She HAS to play with someone that makes her feel uncomfortable then she no longer has faith in her signals when her body tells her that the person she is with is uncomfortable.
I teach, model, and emulate to my children loving anyone, but throwing off their radar systems and forcing them to play with people that make them feel uncomfortable can unfortunately be one of the worst parenting mistakes that people make.
I always encourage her to play with her for a shorter period of time rather than tell her to leave. My idea I actually gave her was to ask to play with her at her house instead so she can leave after an hour without making it uncomfortable. She has done this before. |
I hear that if there's a specific person making them uncomfortable then MAYBE it's a reason not to encourage them to play together, depending on why they're uncomfortable. (Just because the girl isn't cool enough for example, is definitely not a valid reason to keep turning someone away.)
But, please don't make this about respecting their body. We're not talking about unwanted touch here, which is a completely different subject.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 9:43 am
| amother Rainbow wrote: | To expand on this- I totally understand that you simply weren't educated about and that's okay! We're in this world to learn!
When a child learns that her body and time belong to someone else. She HAS to play with someone that makes her feel uncomfortable then she no longer has faith in her signals when her body tells her that the person she is with is uncomfortable.
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Respectfully, Psychologists say alot of things today. You have to think if what theyre saying makes sense.
I think you are teaching your dd to confuse not feeling safe with not being happy. So any time she is not happy, in other words "uncomfortable", she will associate this with not being "safe".
Additionally, you are not giving her the muscles to recognize not safe vs unhappy, and the resilience muscles to overcome her innate desire to do what she wants vs doing whats right.
Our job as parents is to create SAFE spaces to do whats right and then encourage our kid to do whats right. Same as you push your kid and sit with your kid and encourage your kid to do their math and kriah homework even though it's hard.
At the same time you teach your kid to recognize and STAND UP to not safe and not nice.
As your kids get older youll find its the kids/people your kids are most eager and clomoring to be with (cool kids) who sometimes convince them to do the not safe things.............make sure they know how to read the signals.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 9:49 am
| amother Amethyst wrote: | I hear that if there's a specific person making them uncomfortable then MAYBE it's a reason not to encourage them to play together, depending on why they're uncomfortable. (Just because the girl isn't cool enough for example, is definitely not a valid reason to keep turning someone away.)
But, please don't make this about respecting their body. We're not talking about unwanted touch here, which is a completely different subject. |
I see the misunderstanding here 
I would NEVER no NEVER encourage them not to play together. In fact I highly encourage the opposite!! What I do is I don't force- that shows them that I respect their feelings.
And to quote the next amother
| Quote: | think you are teaching your dd to confuse not feeling safe with not being happy. So any time she is not happy, in other words "uncomfortable", she will associate this with not being "safe".
Additionally, you are not giving her the muscles to recognize not safe vs unhappy, and the resilience muscles to overcome her innate desire to do what she wants vs doing whats right.
Our job as parents is to create SAFE spaces to do whats right and then encourage our kid to do whats right. Same as you push your kid and sit with your kid and encourage your kid to do their math and kriah homework even though it's hard. |
I am most definitely NOT confusing anything. I DO teach her the difference. It all has to do with the way you teach it. It's not a lesson I can give over online, but I'm sure you can figure it out!
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 10:01 am
Dd has been the friend who was already over when another girl showed up. She was invited in, and the rest of the afternoon was about her and the in jokes the two of them had that dd wasn't a part of. Another time, a girl was let in because she was a nice enough girl if a bit awkward. Turns out the hostess didn't know that this girl used to treat dd really badly- we had to switch dd's class because of it. She stopped going to this girl's house because she knows they always let her in.
Sometimes it's not nice to the person who is already there. When this happens in our house, dd asks the girl who is already there what she thinks. Yes, it can be awkward and she may not tell the truth, but at least this gives her a chance. And if the guest says no in a mean way/for mean reasons, dd will accommodate and then either speak it over with her or not invite her anymore- and then invite the other girl.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 10:11 am
| amother Rainbow wrote: | | I am most definitely NOT confusing anything. I DO teach her the difference. It all has to do with the way you teach it. It's not a lesson I can give over online, but I'm sure you can figure it out! |
Count me skeptical that you effectively teach a kid about "discomfort" regarding body safety by allowing them to leave out a girl you think is perfectly safe and fine because dd is "uncomfortable". If you think its working ill let it go, but you might want to reflect a bit and check in with yourself.
This is like allowing a kid not to bathe because water makes them uncomfortable.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 10:29 am
| amother Rainbow wrote: | To expand on this- I totally understand that you simply weren't educated about and that's okay! We're in this world to learn!
When a child learns that her body and time belong to someone else. She HAS to play with someone that makes her feel uncomfortable then she no longer has faith in her signals when her body tells her that the person she is with is uncomfortable.
I teach, model, and emulate to my children loving anyone, but throwing off their radar systems and forcing them to play with people that make them feel uncomfortable can unfortunately be one of the worst parenting mistakes that people make.
I always encourage her to play with her for a shorter period of time rather than tell her to leave. My idea I actually gave her was to ask to play with her at her house instead so she can leave after an hour without making it uncomfortable. She has done this before. |
What does this girl do that makes dd feel uncomfortable? This might be an opportunity to teach dd how to be assertive.
Just yesterday ds 9 had a friend over. Another boy knocked. Ds's first friend does not get along great with the third boy. I had a talk in private with ds and his first friend about empathy, not hurting feelings or making someone feel excluded, and how to brainstorm a game or activity that three of them could enjoy. And what do you know, they ended up playing beautifully.
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amother
Sand
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 10:35 am
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Invite her in. The more the merrier. It also teaches good middos and tolerance.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 10:43 am
| amother Floralwhite wrote: | What does this girl do that makes dd feel uncomfortable? This might be an opportunity to teach dd how to be assertive.
Just yesterday ds 9 had a friend over. Another boy knocked. Ds's first friend does not get along great with the third boy. I had a talk in private with ds and his first friend about empathy, not hurting feelings or making someone feel excluded, and how to brainstorm a game or activity that three of them could enjoy. And what do you know, they ended up playing beautifully. |
You apparently didn't read my posts where I said I do that too. I'm so happy for you that your son was amenable.
Unfortunately we don't choose our children and force them to be certain ways- we do our best to mold the people that they are. BH your son was happy to in the end!!!
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amother
Aster
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 10:52 am
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I feel like people are mixing up children of different ages. It's perfectly normal for children up to 10 to have the parents mastermind friendships and how many can play in their house at one given time. Once they already pre-teens and turning into teens, then I think the girl/boy is old enough to be working it out without mommy deciding for them.
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B'Syata D'Shmya
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 11:06 am
| amother Rainbow wrote: | She is not uncomfortable around most kids. Just one.
I am 100% not encouraging my daughter to be a bully. I have consulted experts in the bullying field and safety field (psychologists)
I have no responsibility towards the other kids however badly I feel for her. My responsibility is to my child. Someone that is so kind to others and hurts her kids in the process is not kind at all.
You on the other hand have no problem bullying online and telling me I'm encouraging my daughter to bully (which I am not) so I'm not sure how your daughters are turning out... |
I really dont think anyone here meant to bully.
It sounds like you are referring to one specific person. That may be the exception that proves the rule,
Certainly if your child has expressed to you that she doesnt want to play with a specific girl, you must respect that. I would gently keep my radar on - and find out whats bothering my child.
OP specifically said a nice girl, and what most of us are saying is that as parents we should encourage our children to be inclusive and friendly to all the local nice girls.
Your last line, was kinda weird to me. Please know that even the best parents, say Avraham Avinu, or Yitzchak and Rivka or King Chizkiyahu and his queen Chefzibah can have children like Yishmael and Esav and King Menashe.
The way our daughters turn out may not be a reflection of our chinuch...
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 11:12 am
| amother Purple wrote: | Dd has been the friend who was already over when another girl showed up. She was invited in, and the rest of the afternoon was about her and the in jokes the two of them had that dd wasn't a part of. Another time, a girl was let in because she was a nice enough girl if a bit awkward. Turns out the hostess didn't know that this girl used to treat dd really badly- we had to switch dd's class because of it. She stopped going to this girl's house because she knows they always let her in.
Sometimes it's not nice to the person who is already there. When this happens in our house, dd asks the girl who is already there what she thinks. Yes, it can be awkward and she may not tell the truth, but at least this gives her a chance. And if the guest says no in a mean way/for mean reasons, dd will accommodate and then either speak it over with her or not invite her anymore- and then invite the other girl. |
I am so sorry your dd had such a rough time with a specific girl, but that doesnt mean your dd will never have to deal with her.
What if her bashert is first cousins or closer to that girl.
Does that girl treat everyone poor or just your dd?
How can you help your dd overcome this challenge.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 11:15 am
| amother Rainbow wrote: | You apparently didn't read my posts where I said I do that too. I'm so happy for you that your son was amenable.
Unfortunately we don't choose our children and force them to be certain ways- we do our best to mold the people that they are. BH your son was happy to in the end!!! |
That's why I asked what the reason is that this friend makes dd uncomfortable. Especially since you said the friend is a nice girl and you as the mother would have no problem with the friendship. Maybe getting to the bottom of that can help come up with more effective ways.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 11:18 am
| amother Coral wrote: | It's hard for the introverts! I encourage dd to stretch for someone else's sake, but I can't force her to love having a large group over. I would love of she would be miss popular! But she doesn't want to and possibly can't handle having groups too often.
The girls who are forced sometimes end up lying, like the poster who said her neighbors would hide.
Obviously, if dd would be rejecting someone regularly, we would address that and brainstorm ways to prevent that from happening. But that's not the case in my situation. |
Sorry but no. I'm probably the world's biggest introvert and random people stop over for shabbos all the time. I always invite them in no matter who else is here, chitchat even thought I just want my space and my book, and make everyone feel included and welcome. It's basic middos and my kids are growing up learning to do the same. How in the world can a parent teach a child that it's ok to turn someone away from your home??
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amother
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Sun, Jun 02 2024, 12:13 pm
Ok. OP here.
I'm the mother of the rejected girl.
I know that there are so many angles to every story, every girl, every family.
To all the mothers who would tell a girl, "Sorry she's not available," if you know the girl at your doorstep is a nice girl, a sweet girl, a normal girl... She's not going to be mean, loud, or inappropriate...
Just realize that when you close the door on the girl, who worked so hard to put herself out there and come out of her comfort zone (because she's been rebuffed by people like you), it's going to be that much harder for her to try someone again.
My daughter may lack some self-confidence (though you'd never guess that in school. Though she's not miss popular, she's a star) and she's too timid to invite your dd over, and it's normal to just knock at age 12 without pre planning...
She tried 4(!!!) friends this shabbos. I am so proud of her!!!
2 weren't home and 2 were "unavailable." (Seen with friends)
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