Intellectually spoiled - is this bad?

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Forum -> Hobbies, Crafts, and Collections -> The Imamother Writing Club

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amother

↑ Ballota

Tue, May 14 2024, 5:53 am

amother Daphne wrote:

I agree that some people have a more discerning eye for things. However, will your sister refuse to eat things that are not played the way she likes and insult anything not to her standards? There's a difference between appreciate finer things and being someone who can't relate to anything that's not up to their high standards.

Eating is a necessity. Reading isn't.

amother

IndianRed

Tue, May 14 2024, 6:18 am

I came into the frum fiction world as a bit of a snob, too. But I've been pleasantly surprised to discover that there are definitely writers who can hold their own with the secular writing world. I don't think we're going to find many classics here– but I'd also venture to say that most classics are simply written for a different time period, and the style within them reflects that. We only see them as superior because that style is the one that we study in school.

A lot of acclaimed current fiction is both readable and thoughtful but much more modern. There is definitely frum fiction that is a similar quality of readability. In terms of thoughtfulness, I think, writers are sometimes stunted by the expectations of the readers. Fiction cannot interrogate, cannot deal with intense spiritual or psychological topics– that is reserved for nonfiction, for rabbonim, for the people who can 'get away with it'. So our fiction can be toothless because anything with that intellectual curiosity is deemed controversial or inappropriate.

It's not a question of skill– I would say our percentage of high-quality writers is no different than the percentage in the secular world, and we only have a much smaller pool of writers. It's a question of fear on the parts of publishers, writers, and readers.

amother

Iris

Tue, May 14 2024, 7:01 am

amother Ballota wrote:

Eating is a necessity. Reading isn't.

Speak for yourself.

I'd sooner subsist on dry bread and water than on bad books.

daagahminayin

Tue, May 14 2024, 7:10 am

Interesting discussion. OP, have you ever seen the movie “Educating Rita”? It’s about an English woman from a lower class background who breaks from her culture to study English Literature at university. The movie explores what is gained and what is lost as she becomes exposed to higher ideas and sensitivities that enrich her but also run the risk of alienating her from her original passion.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, May 14 2024, 7:19 am

What can I say, OP, I 100% agree with you.

I also live OOT so don't have access to frum libraries, and don't want to spend lots of $$$ on books of dubious quality.

I do read a lot of secular books, although I read a lot less than I used to.

amother

↑ Clematis

Tue, May 14 2024, 7:23 am

Comptroller wrote:

Depends who surrounds you.
There are not so many "intellectually spoiled" people, and there are circles where shooling, education, general knowledge are not valued to begin with.

so yes, it easier to find people who are not "intellectually spoiled" and who will not appreciate your interests and you will not be able to converse about things that really interest you.

The good thing is: you do not really need that many people to talk about that, and even if you don't find anyone, books will keep you good company and you could just write down your thoughts.

ETA: as for stopping reading well written literature because it is "secular" - no, don't do it, you would deny a part of yourself, you would stop being you, and you would throw away a precious treasury, that is just not valued in certain circles. Don't bow to those who want to advance ignorance.

I love this line. Applause

amother

Steel

Tue, May 14 2024, 7:33 am

It's less intellectually "spoiled" than intellectually snobbish. It's ok, I'm an intellectual snob, too, and have zero tolerance for bad writing. I do think I have higher expectations of frum people and get more annoyed by bad frum writing than bad secular writing. I can often be heard exploding "It's FLOUT the rules, not FLAUNT them!" as I'm reading.

I do find a lot of frum writers use big words incorrectly, and they sound as if they plopped the words in just to make an impression--exactly like a sophomore in HS trying to cram all possible vocab words into a composition. Some secular writers do this, too, but frum writers do it more often.

Maybe it's less the writers than the editors? Many well-known writers admit that they can make up a good yarn, but it's the editor who cleans up all the mistakes, makes sure the main character shows perseverance, not perseveration, and that a character who is wearing a blue jacket walking into a conference room isn't wearing a grey one walking out unless the switch is a deliberate part of the plot.

I'm not impressed with writing that's overly scholarly, either. Is it really necessary to use jargon when there's a simple equivalent term that most people recognize? That's also not good writing. The purpose of writing is to communicate one's ideas clearly to some audience. If the audience isn't getting it, it's bad writing regardless of how elegant one thinks it sounds. And that's why I stopped liking a lot of poetry. I shouldn't have to stand on my head trying to figure out what the poet means.

amother

Slateblue ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:02 am

amother Ballota wrote:

Eating is a necessity. Reading isn't.

Being known as the people of the book is a truism.
I agree with the poster who said she'd manage on dry bread as long as she had good books to read.

amother

↑ OP

Tue, May 14 2024, 10:07 am

To clarify, I made a decision to stop reading secular books 25 years ago, and stopped having frequent slipups two decades ago. The last major secular books I remember reading were the first 2 (maybe 3?) of the Harry Potter series.

I'm not talking about classics like Gone With the Wind or Pride and Prejudice - I (gasp) never read those. (My classics education peters out somewhere after Eight Cousins and Little Women.)

I'm talking about books like The Mozart Season (Virginia Wolf) and Holes by Louis Sachar. Solid, well-crafted books that are enjoyable to read and leave you food for thought.

I've been accused of being a snob on this thread. Maybe they're right?

I've found a lot of Jewish books to love, and even entered a disliked genre to marvel at Map the Starlight (Gebber) and The Betrayal (Kenan). I re-read books to a remarkable extent, to the point where I can sometimes finish A Time to Rend, A Time to Sew (Pomerantz) and promptly go back to the first page.

I've learned to read books I don't particularly appreciate, even if I get annoyed at what a waste of time it was.

But when I get glowing reviews on books, and then find myself astonished at how empty or poorly written or loose the plot or how flat the characters are, I guess I do have to push myself not to look down on those for whom this is their idea of "good writing."

With poetry it is worse. It takes a lot of self-control for me to tolerate the "as long as it rhymes I have produced literature" style, and to compliment it is challenging.

But so many people DO seem to love that type of poetry, and I don't think they're all lying to stroke the author's ego.

It makes me wonder if this is a self-created beast, if I spoiled myself to the extent that I can't enjoy average level writing.

(For those wondering if the problem might be the editors, I've said that for years. You need a sharp and ruthless editor to make a good book great. I don't want to point to specific books, but some of the best examples in frum literature would have been next level with a less gentle editor.)

The video recommendation (Educating Rita) sounds very interesting. I stopped watching secular videos also over 20 years ago, but if I ever cave to temptation this will be at the top of my list!

sequoia ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 10:11 am

It’s fine

Regarding money, it’s the other way round — better food and clothes are more expensive, but you can read the classics for free online, while new Jewish books you definitely have to pay for.

It’s nice if you can flip through a magazine or a frum novel on a lazy shabbos afternoon without going “ewww”, but it’s not really necessary for your happiness.

amother

↑ Slateblue ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:51 pm

sequoia wrote:

It’s fine

I don't know, I've spent several shabbosim alone. The ones where I didn't have good food but had absorbing and interesting reading material were a lot less boring/depressing than the ones where I had good food but poor reading material. I'd truly rather eat just plain challah as long as I have good stuff to read. And you can't read digital stuff on shabbos! (I get most of my books from the library anyway. I do buy at least one frum magazine each week.)

BTW, I'm no literary snob. Sure I've read plenty of the classics, but I also read contemporary books and not necessarily highbrow stuff. You just can't compare the quality of the fiction. I find non-fiction articles and columns in the frum publications to be much better than the fiction. Maybe some of it is the editing, as mentioned by a previous poster.

amother

DarkYellow

Tue, May 14 2024, 2:02 pm

I get you OP, because I grew up in an “intellectually superior” family. And thankfully I’ve learned to respect all kinds of people including those who can’t write or spell for the life of them. I get you, although I can read non intellectual secular books but there’s almost no Jewish writing that would satisfy my intellect. I grew up in the kind of family where my mom would write letters to the editors of local publications and to teachers letting them know of their intellectual failures. I’ve since gotten to a place where I don’t respect that. Sure I respect a well spoken and well written person. But I work on not thinking less of those who aren’t like that. I’ve met experts in my field who can’t spell for the life of them. And I’ve learned that being well spoken and well written is not the be all and end all.

↑ sequoia

Tue, May 14 2024, 3:11 pm

amother Slateblue wrote:

You can in theory print out anything from gutenberg.com to read on shabbos. Jane Austen, the Brontes, Elizabeth Gaskell…

amother

↑ Slateblue

Tue, May 14 2024, 3:15 pm

sequoia wrote:

You can in theory print out anything from gutenberg.com to read on shabbos. Jane Austen, the Brontes, Elizabeth Gaskell…

I suppose if I had no choice, I would. But fortunately I have a great public library system in my city, so I don't need to pay for my shabbos reading material other than the frum magazine I treat myself to weekly.

Also, as much as I love the classics (and I've read all of the above authors you listed), I like much more of a variety and need contemporary fiction to mix up my reading material up.

amother

Buttercup ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 3:25 pm

Can we call this having high standards instead of intellectually spoiled?
Nothing wrong with that, a lot of books are geared toward a general audience that doesn’t have an appreciation for well crafted literature.

amother

↑ Buttercup

Tue, May 14 2024, 3:28 pm

amother Green wrote:

Don't want to derail the thread, but can you share your favorite Jewish authors or books? I'm always searching for more great material.

In general non-fiction (memoirs, biographies) will be better. But some solid fiction writes I like include Henye Meyer, Yair Weinstock, M Kenan , Miriam Luxenberg. Also really liked Esther Kurtz’s short story collection. And

chocolate moose

Tue, May 14 2024, 6:00 pm

jewiah writing, music and entertainment is a lot better today then it was 40 years ago.

amother

Lemonchiffon

Tue, May 14 2024, 6:30 pm

It’s a bit of a lonely feeling, for me. There’s so little frum fiction that has nuance and depth. Very little that really takes you into the characters’ world and makes you feel their emotions, and recognize pieces of yourself. Nothing that makes you think about yourself and your life through the lens of the characters. It feels lonely because everyone around you is talking about supper and kids’ summer wardrobes and so much surface level stuff, and nobody is talking about things they’ve read, because there’s nothing to read that’s worth talking about. So your inner world, which is peopled by Anne Elliot perhaps, or Dicey Tillerman, and all the others, remains private and a bit shameful. All the more so because you see so much lacking in those books’ worldview, and don’t want to be influenced by them, yet the people are so vivid and you keep going back to them….

amother

Peachpuff

Tue, May 14 2024, 6:43 pm

Amother slategray made a good point about relatability. Different kinds of writing can serve different purposes, and the same goes for music, dance, art.

When I attend my kindergartener's siddur party and enjoy the songs and dances, it's not because I think that the choreography and execution are exceptionally flawless or the composition is original. I enjoy it because of my relationship and closeness to my child.

When I read a really interesting academic article or non-fiction book, it's often not very well-written or edited, but I enjoy it and get value because it gathers a lot of very valuable information and insight into one place where I am able to benefit from and process it. Academics are often poor writers, but that doesn't negate the value of their research and analysis.

While I don't read frum magazines or frum fiction, I imagine that for people who do, some of the value and enjoyment comes from seeing themselves represented and from seeing certain issues discussed that don't get discussed elsewhere because they are so niche. A person can enjoy high quality literature, and still enjoy a siddur party, and a poorly written non-fiction book, and a poorly written fictionalized account of an aspect of their life that never gets fictionalized or discussed elsewhere.

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