Intellectually spoiled - is this bad?

amother

OP ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 5:39 am

Someone who is used to eating only at the finest restaurants, or wearing high quality clothing and shoes, will be spoiled. It will be difficult for them to tolerate eating simple food or wearing clothing made of mediocre materials or with subpar craftsmanship.

Most of us would consider that a negative.

Is the same true of intellectual spoiling?

Having read high quality poetry, well-crafted literature, and well-researched historical fiction, I find many Jewish books, and especially poetry, grating.

But I see many people who enjoy what I consider terrible poetry, pathetic storylines, and extremely amateur writing.

Maybe that is not such a good thing?

Maybe I'd be happier if I could appreciate drivel? Am I truly in a better place for being so critical of what passes for frum literature? Or should I try to learn to be happy with the simpler intellectual offerings available?

amother

Aqua

Tue, May 14 2024, 5:59 am

Interesting question.

It's defintely not the same. I think a large part of why many consider the first type of spoiled to be negative is because these are things you have to do - you need to eat, wear clothes, etc. - and it costs more to do it on a higher standard. In comparison, you are talking about something that is not a neccessity, and doesn't cost more to consume at a higher standard.

The similarity comes in regards to the struggle of being limited, and the fact that this prevents you from enjoying things on the lower standard. When it comes to material, there can come a time where people really need to get over their standards because of life circumstances. That's not really going to happen when it comes to books Smile

Really, it's a matter of personal preferences. I used to be like you and couldn't stand much of the Jewish literature. Then, at some point I started reading a lot less and also cut out a lot of my secular media consumption. Eventually my standards got lower, and now I can enjoy a lot more of what's out there in Jewish writing. I'm happy about that. It's not like I forgot how to appreciate the more intellectually sophisticated stuff, I'm just not as used to it. But if you're happy with how things are, that's fine, too. This doesn't really affect anyone besides you!

Comptroller

Tue, May 14 2024, 6:55 am

Depends who surrounds you.
There are not so many "intellectually spoiled" people, and there are circles where shooling, education, general knowledge are not valued to begin with.

so yes, it easier to find people who are not "intellectually spoiled" and who will not appreciate your interests and you will not be able to converse about things that really interest you.

The good thing is: you do not really need that many people to talk about that, and even if you don't find anyone, books will keep you good company and you could just write down your thoughts.

ETA: as for stopping reading well written literature because it is "secular" - no, don't do it, you would deny a part of yourself, you would stop being you, and you would throw away a precious treasury, that is just not valued in certain circles. Don't bow to those who want to advance ignorance.

amother

Bone

Tue, May 14 2024, 7:20 am

It's an issue because of the lack of quality reading available, and the extreme likelihood thay having something quality to read is experienced as a need and that reading is enough of a regular activity that a lot is required. Even with rereads, there is going to be a regular reading of a lot of materials that you might not choose to otherwise.

For comparison, we can choose to use "spoiled", or we can choose the route of "sensory". The Princess and the Pea is either a story about a ridiculously spoiled brat or a tragically sensory girl who really can feel that pea. I'm not spoiled that I can feel a tag on something, or if my skin reacts to polyester. So if it's a genuine intolerance (which yes, can develop over time, including getting more severe when we start to avoid the offending thing due to the discomfort), then we get to choose a path, within limits.

We can read good material very carefully and find a couple of likeminded friends to discuss with, including someone who we can talk to about if and how messages might be affecting us and navigating through that- and the pain of needing to drop reading a beloved author or series and the lack of material. Or we can push ourselves to tolerate a greater variety of reading. Most likely, we work from both ends to at least some extent.

amother

Eggplant

Tue, May 14 2024, 7:43 am

I don't think you personally are spoiled for not appreciating amateur poetry.

If someone has a sophisticated palate and cannot tolerate substandard food, they are not the negative kind of spoiled.

But what if this makes them feel superior to others who truly enjoy the simple fare?

What if they are missing out on healthy nourishment because it isn't plated elegantly enough?

What about the person who thinks they have sophisticated tastes, but in reality they are getting themselves addicted to chemically laden junk food?

amother

Rainbow

Tue, May 14 2024, 8:24 am

As someone who is a big reader and reads a lot of non Jewish books and materials… There are some amazing Jewish authors out there. I personally don’t enjoy the newspapers and magazines so I don’t buy them. But I also don’t act like a snob and say if someone is frum it must be drivel and therefore I don’t bother with it. The same way I research non Jewish authors and books because so much of that is drivel, I research frum ones too. Just because a book is written by a non jew doesn’t make it good or high quality. And plenty are not well written and nonsense. I can spend hours in Barnes and noble which I go to often until I find books that fit my requirements of being in the high quality category. So this just comes across as snobby more than intellectually spoiled.

amother

Ballota ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 8:28 am

I think there are two different categories of people here. One is someone who is used to eating in fine restaurants, and expects a certain level of presentation and service, another is someone who is genuinely and naturally more attuned to the aesthetics. For example, I have no problem eating anything as long as it's on a plate, my sister naturally "plates" her courses and presents her food nicely. We both grew up in the same home, this is natural to her, and not natural to me. She has an inborn appreciation of nice decor and good plating, while for me it's something that I can learn to do, but it's not natural or inborn.

Someone who has a natural sense of design and architecture will appreciate a beautifully some of us can be taught to understand the differences but don't have that natural talent. Some people are naturally musical and can appreciate the difference between really good music and not, and some of us, while not naturally born that way, can be taught to understand the differences (and sometimes not!).

I think the same can be said for good writing. A lot of people are forced to read literature in school. They don't really enjoy or appreciate it, sometimes they can come to like a good book, but for many it's a matter of indifference.

From a very young age I have been drawn to classics. Something changes inside of me when I read a really, really well written and thought provoking book. This is not something that was taught to me, and from living life I have noticed that most people just aren't like that. I actually know very few in real life who are like that.

My problem is that I can't read frum literature, but I am often repelled by the empty lives, the lack of morals, and ultimately the lack of insight at the end of the book, which leads me feeling less than satisfied after reading (a good example of a well written book who's characters repel me is "Gone With the Wind").

I don't really have an answer for the above dilemma, but - I don't consider myself intellectually spoiled or snobby, at all. This is simply the way I'm wired.

amother

Green

Tue, May 14 2024, 8:31 am

amother Rainbow wrote:

Don't want to derail the thread, but can you share your favorite Jewish authors or books? I'm always searching for more great material.

amother

Daphne ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 8:34 am

amother OP wrote:

I don't think this is necessarily accurate that people who enjoy or consume so-called lesser quality items are just not used to higher quality. It is a bit of a snobbish stance. And it's kind of rude to call it drivel when many people do actually enjoy it for exactly what it is. And it's not because they are simpletons who have never been exposed to anything of "better quality".

I have gotten used to certain higher quality items but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate things across the board.
Everything has a place and time.

I would consider myself extremely well read but there are times when I don't want high quality literature. I just want fluff.

Same goes with food, clothes, wine, etc.

amother

↑ Daphne

Tue, May 14 2024, 8:40 am

amother Ballota wrote:

I agree that some people have a more discerning eye for things. However, will your sister refuse to eat things that are not played the way she likes and insult anything not to her standards? There's a difference between appreciate finer things and being someone who can't relate to anything that's not up to their high standards.