Tuition Breaks and Tomchei Shabbos

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 12:29 pm

amother Bronze wrote:

Wow you are really clueless. No we do not get it "no worries."

I was told by my kid's school that I should fundraise from family. I told them my family is poor (my parents always struggled, married me off with hachnasas kallah, and my siblings are all struggling young couples like me).
So the school told me to find an older single and ask them for their maaser.

And yes I really need the break. I live ln a tiny apartment. My wig is 10 years old and you can see the cap because most of the hair has come out at this point. Car is 16 years old. Graco snap n go is 10 year old (and yes I know it's expired and not safe). Clothing is hand me down or target. Chicken only on shabbos and even then it's 1 drumstick per person. I don't buy fruits/veggies except 2 potatoes for the cholent. And obviously no cleaning help or vacation

Hugs. I sympathize with you.
And I want to make a few points.

1. It was easier to get Tomchei Shabbos. They spoke to my Rav. They asked me how much savings I have, we discussed what it's earmarked for, they asked me what programs I'm on (none), how much my rent/mortgage is, etc.
2. I don't not pay tuition. I ask to pay less. But it really upsets me how the schools look at my 5-6k per kid. Yes, I understand that it's not the total necessary. But it's not nothing. It represents a tremendous amount of energy.
3. Stop accusing me of not prioritizing tuition. I would venture to say that me paying 30k a year out of a 100k budget for my 5 kids prioritizes and sacrifices a lot more than my neighbor making 500k and paying 60k for her 5 kids.
4. Stop accusing me of lying. There is no room for luxuries in 100k budget with 5 kids. Just because you (tuition boards) can't imagine not going on at least 2 vacations a year, doesn't mean everyone lives like that.

amother

Birch

Tue, May 14 2024, 12:49 pm

amother OP wrote:

Are you sure?
Because I don't get the breaks that I NEED. I told the school im getting Tomchei. I haven't gone on any vacation, bought a shaitels or a new car in years
They said too bad, cut costs.
I said where?
They demanded my credit card line by line and told me that if I cut Walmart $15 a week, groceries $50 a week, that $260 a month tuition.
And I should skip therapy to twice a month not 4 times a month and now there's an extra $400 a month. No need for a break.

Im not the only one who have had these experiences.

Wow, just wow,
If I had the guts I would ask them to shoe me THEIR credit card bill, tell them that they should cut their Amazon bill by $500 a month, their Pesach hotel by $5000, cut out one Sheitel, one of their luxury vacation, on piece of jewelry for 10k.
Do they even realize that none of those things exist for people like us?

amother

Peach ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:02 pm

I didn’t read all the replies. So just responding to your OP. I’m not sure where you live but we never had a problem getting tuitions breaks. We are not poor, just the average frum family trying to make it. We’re honest about our income etc, and no one ever asked about vacations or cars or anything like that. We don’t get Tomchei shabbos. Maybe I’m from a completely different crowd but many people I know get tuition breaks and I don’t think I know anyone who gets Tomchei shabbos. (Could be they do and I just don’t know but it’s definitely not prevalent)

amother

Bisque

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:11 pm

amother Bronze wrote:

I said this on the other thread and I'll say it again.

The vast majority of people asking for tuition breaks really really need it. This claim that "everyone is asking for breaks while living the high life" isn't true IRL

I look around and those of us in the under 35 crowd are struggling to much.
Renting tiny apartments with no hope of every buying our own house, even a small old one. Dressing our kids in hand me downs and buying cheap from target. Driving old cars (mine is 16 years old). Using cheap used baby equipment (my graco car snap n go car seat is almost 10 years old). Serving cheap pasta during the week and chicken only on shabbos.

The people I know who spend on luxuries do NOT ask for breaks and consider it beneath them and demeaning to even fill out the scholarship application.

I know this isn't related to the topic at hand, but, please, take note that carseats have expiration dates (used to be 5, then 7, and, some newer ones, 10 years after they are made). I understand (goodness, do I understand from my own personal 'in debt to my eyeballs, and still sinking' position) that money can be tight, but, please, make sure to check on the expiration date of your carseat. In some states, they help with carseats, even giving ones away for free, no financial records required.

I'm not trying to call you out, I promise. I couldn't PM you because you're privately posting, otherwise I would have gone that route. Please, forgive me. I'm a big time worrier when it comes to carseats, since they are what is protecting our most precious cargo. Not calling out, rather, just looking. 💗

amother

↑ Eggplant ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:14 pm

amother Peach wrote:

This has nothing to do with op. She's understandably upset that she's having a hard time getting a break. With all due respect you're not doing anything right and she's not doing anything wrong. You send to a school that can afford to give breaks easily and the op doesn't.

amother

↑ Peach

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:16 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

My point was that I’m expressing surprise because I grew up like with my parents sending to a various schools, and I myself send to various schools. This hasn’t been my experience at all. Not sure why I’m not doing anything right. I’m very honest. If I offended OP, my deepest apologies.

↑ chestnut ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:24 pm

amother OP wrote:

If my monthly credit card bill is $4k and I show them that piece. And I say its medical, food, clothing, car insurance, gas, utilities, filters, phones, toiletries and therapy. For a family of 7.
Why do they need a line by line.
Where are my hiding luxuries within that 4k number?
Asking for more than a basic breakdown was agreed to be humiliating on the other thread, yet shrugged at
Even Tomchei Shabbos doesn't ask for that.

Tomchei Shabbos has very different funding. Wanna ask around how many ppl donate to Tomchei Shabbos and to schools?
My educated guess is that schools were lied to before, that's why they decided this was needed. It's definitely far from foolproof cause so many ppl have more than one credit card. If your school requests credit card statements, feel free to suggest them alternatives.
Our schools have many issues, but I wouldn't include wanting to know who your therapists/Drs are and how much you spend per visit is among them.

amother

↑ Green ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:30 pm

Cheiny wrote:

And knowing that some people unfortunately aren’t honest, and take advantage by taking breaks when they shouldn’t be getting them, how can the yeshivas just ask for totals and be able to trust they’re getting the truth?

How does providing cc information provide trust. I can separate out the expenses onto two cards. One for necessities, one for luxuries. Then only provide the one with necessities to the school.

Your logic only works for the first year, when you catch them by surprise. After that anyone who wants to manipulate the request can very easily do so.

Then who gets the fallout - the ones legitimately in need. So this policy hasn't been thought thru properly at all.

amother

Apple ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:30 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

Why is your assumption that they can afford it?

Maybe they just have different priorities, and value educating another Jewish child over upgrading their (perfectly good) science curriculum? Or they understand that it's far easier for them to add another $10,000 to their fundraising goal than for a family to cut out their entire grocery budget?

Just as my spending reflects my values and priorities, a school's does as well. When there seems to be no effort put into making tuition affordable and a strong antipathy to fundraising for the expensive choices they make (it's easier to extort from the parents), it shows a skewed priority system.

↑ chestnut ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:35 pm

amother OP wrote:

Ok, so this is really the crux of the problem for you, not just asking for that info.
I'm sorry; I'd feel devastated at that response.
Could be they live in ivory towers or not nice ppl, or could be your school parent body is overall very middle income, so it's hard for them to fundraise. Either way, it doesn't help you.

amother

Silver

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:36 pm

I want to make a few points:

-Getting a tuition reduction that is low enough for us to pay can be extremely difficult.

-It feels like they are invading our privacy when they demand to see what we spent money on.

-On the other hand, they are just trying to weed out the people who don't need as much of a break.

-There are tuition boards that just don't get it, or don't care. I did have one board tell me I should put my kids in public school if I couldn't afford what they were charging us.

-There are other tuition boards that really do care. I cried to one school administrator about how I had to borrow money for diapers and I really couldn't pay the tuition. He sent me a check to refund me for the last month's tuition. It was so touching.

With another school administrator at a totally different school, a bounced payment was supposed to go through again on a certain day and it went through the wrong time, causing my rent check to bounce. I complained about their mistake and they offered to refund it.

There are people who care on these boards.

-I would not call the schools hypocrites. They are not asking us for tzedaka, so they don't need to prove to us how they spend their money. They are a business, we are hiring them, we want a discount, so we prove we need it.

-Since the business is teaching Torah to Jewish children, which is a very expensive necessity, they should be as generous as possible.

↑ chestnut ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:37 pm

amother Green wrote:

Just thought of this - if separate luxury expenses onto a different cc, then you can't claim them as expenses, your expenses (just necessities) will be lower and you don't need a tuition break or need a much lower one.

amother

↑ Green ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:40 pm

chestnut wrote:

The crux of the problem is exactly what OP highlighted. Once you share your private info, they will them take it a step further and start deciding what's needed and what's not. How can they even think that it's within their scope to define if someone needs 2 weeks of therapy versus 4. Or if my food spending is too much without understanding that I have a highly allergic child that causes my good bill to be significantly higher than average.

Are the poorer folks now going to need to get the schools permission to simply live their lives? Will they need to run every outliers by the school board to maintain their discount. It's absurd.

The ones who are gaming the system will hide their stuff. The ones who truly need it will be humiliated and have to deal with someone governing their lives.

I can't see how any sane adult can support this.

amother

Sage

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:43 pm

amother OP wrote:

I don't get it. There's enough money to make sure that every kollel family gets a new dress and suit and shoes (from expensive stores). But not enough to help every child get a Jewish education without killing the parents.

The schools have to work towards this goal as well. They want to see how the parents spend every penny, but they don't disclose how they spend the money.

When asking for a tuition break, schools often ask how much outside help the family employs (such as cleaning ladies). Yet nobody audits how much expensive staff the school hires. One school my daughters attended, which was a small school, had so many principals/administrators/curriculum directors that there was one for every ten students in the school! (To compare, the elementary school I attended as a child had 700 students, one principal, one assistant principal, and one secretary, and we received a fantastic education.) Every one of those principals in my daughters' school were paid through our tuition. All those principals did not pay tuition for their own children, which only added to the parents' tuition. What a heavy and unnecessary burden to place on the parents.

Also, if a parent is saving up money to buy a house, a school might say, "You have so much in savings, pay us before asking for a break." And they may be right about that. Yet the same school will not dip into their building fund to pay teachers on time as halacha dictates. My daughters' school sent out a letter asking for donations because they hadn't paid the teachers in almost six months. Just a few months later they sent another letter announcing that they broke ground on a new building! So they did have the money to pay the teachers, but they were reserving it for a new building instead. A building fund is just like the money saved toward a home, and it should not be held in reserve if the school's required expenses are not being met first.

A rosh yeshiva once came to R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z"l and asked for a bracha, as he couldn't afford to pay his staff and had fallen behind a few months. R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach asked the rosh yeshiva if the yeshiva owned a building, and the rosh yeshiva answered yes. R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach instructed him to sell the building and pay his staff. The rosh yeshiva objected, saying that without the building he wouldn't have a yeshiva. R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach responded that the Torah does not obligate a person to have a yeshiva, but the Torah does obligate people to pay their workers on time. I personally confirmed the story with a Rav in Yerushalayim.

Part of making tuition more affordable is making sure the money is spent appropriately. Just as parents have to make sure to work on a budget, so should the schools.

amother

↑ Green ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:43 pm

chestnut wrote:

You can claim you spent xyz with cash. Are they going to ban the parents from using cash next?

And you can pad necessities if need be. For example, I may buy the airline tickets with one card, but put all the other vacation related expense on the other (the ones that will appear in a basic category.) Again someone gaming the system, can easily figure it out.

amother

↑ Eggplant ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:44 pm

amother Green wrote:

And how does putting a lock on your door prevent the bad guys from breaking in? They can pick the lock, break down the door, or go in thru a window.

The answer is it offers another layer of (imperfect) protection.

I can tell you forsure that fewer people are applying for aid with the new system. That means that *some* people have decided that while it's simple and easy to fill out a form and check the "no" box when asked if you went on vacation, it's a whole different level to be scheming with multiple cc's all year trying to stay a step ahead of the tuition committee. Some people will just give in and pay.

amother

↑ Green ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:45 pm

amother Sage wrote:

The schools have to work towards this goal as well. They want to see how the parents spend every penny, but they don't disclose how they spend the money.

When asking for a tuition break, schools often ask how much outside help the family employs (such as cleaning ladies). Yet nobody audits how much expensive staff the school hires. One school my daughters attended, which was a small school, had so many principals/administrators/curriculum directors that there was one for every ten students in the school! (To compare, the elementary school I attended as a child had 700 students, one principal, one assistant principal, and one secretary, and we received a fantastic education.) Every one of those principals in my daughters' school were paid through our tuition. All those principals did not pay tuition for their own children, which only added to the parents' tuition. What a heavy and unnecessary burden to place on the parents.

Also, if a parent is saving up money to buy a house, a school might say, "You have so much in savings, pay us before asking for a break." And they may be right about that. Yet the same school will not dip into their building fund to pay teachers on time as halacha dictates. My daughters' school sent out a letter asking for donations because they hadn't paid the teachers in almost six months. Just a few months later they sent anoteh rletter anouncing that they broke ground on a new building! So they did have the money to pay the teachers, but they were reserving it for a new building instead. A building fund is just like the money saved toward a home, and it should not be held in reserve if the school's required expenses are not being met first.

A rosh yeshiva once came to R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z"l and asked for a bracha, as he couldn't afford to pay his staff and had fallen behind a few months. R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach asked the rosh yeshiva if the yeshiva owned a building, and the rosh yeshiva answered yes. R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach instructed him to sell the building and pay his staff. The rosh yeshiva objected, saying that without the building he wouldn't have a yeshiva. R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach responded that the Torah does not obligate a person to have a yeshiva, but the Torah does obligate people to pay their workers on time. I personally confirmed the story with a Rav in Yerushalayim.

Part of making tuition more affordable is making sure the money is spent appropriately. Just as parents have to make sure to work on a budget, so should the schools.

Well said. Honestly, if it were a 2 way street, people would be more honest and upfront. But the school gets to hide their books, and parents must disclose every inch of their lives?