Schools Enforcing a Rule in the Rulebook

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 12:31 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

So what is the core issue in your opinion?
And second of all, if you feel that BY school system is throwing kids under the bus then why don't you take them out of BY schools and enroll them in schools which are more in your hashkafah?

Core issue is trying to be the enforcer of yiddishkeit for society. They currently operate as a third set of parents instead of educational bodies.

My school kids are all teens. Changing up their environment is more risky than quietly defying school rules. I have had many such conversations with my kids why we enforce some rules and some not. And where and how it's OK to sidestep some rules (as per guidance received).

It's hard enough to parent in today's age. Having to deal with schools infringing on parents responsibilities only makes it tougher. BH my kids are coming out healthy and on solid ground, but I attribute it more to us bending the school rules rather than blindly enforcing them. The kids know we work with them individually as per their individual circumstances and we don't create a box and try to force them into it.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 12:37 pm

amother Oatmeal wrote:

Thanks for clarifying.
Which rules do you see that need bending or are superfluous? If you could elaborate.

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 12:45 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Thanks for clarifying.
Which rules do you see that need bending or are superfluous? If you could elaborate.

No, I don't elaborate to anyone. It's individual to my family and I never share. I don't need it to be analyzed, interpreted or teethed out per others understanding. Unless you are in my home/in my shoes there is no need to share.

This is what parenting should be. You decide what your kids need, and work it out for them. You don't need my information to decide what is best for your kids. And I tell my kids the same - what we do at home, what we decide for them is for their eyes and ears only. We explain to them that every person had their own needs and sharing such info can be harmful instead of helpful without proper guidance.

amother

↑ Denim ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 12:50 pm

I think one of the issues is that some are confusing schools changing their standards on the parents mid way through with schools simply applying their standards to adapt to changing situations on the ground.

For example, if a school did not have a smartphone policy in 2004 but introduced one in 2008, the school did not change its hashkafos and standards on the parents; smartphones simply weren’t around in 2004.

If a school never had an issue with groups of student flying unaccompanied to hang out in Miami during winter vacation and scores of students start doing so, the schools is not changing its standards if it sets a policy; it is adapting to facts on the ground.

A school is not meant to have a rule book that is written for posterity like the United Stated Constitution. It is meant to apply a consistent set of values and hashkafos that are constantly adapting to the facts on the ground. Unless the school is completely overhauling it’s hashkafos or adapting standards that were never the community norm simply to up the level of frumkeit or the like, parents should expect some level of adaptation consistent with the schools overall guiding philosophy at the time they sign up.

amother

↑ Denim

Sun, May 05 2024, 12:57 pm

amother Oatmeal wrote:

I agree that there are times a parent needs to make a personal decision that works for their child, particularly when it comes to mental health days and the like, but in my experience letting kids know that you don’t buy in to some of the schools hashkafos and putting those hashkafos down can do tremendous harm to that child’s chinuch. I have seen the results of many well intentioned parents putting down the schools values that they aren’t on board with and they aren’t pretty. Kids, even older high schoolers are quick to throw the baby out with the bath water and consider all the chinuch imparted by the school to be fungible. Tread carefully.

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 1:06 pm

amother Denim wrote:

Yup and that's precisely why the school rules are so harmful. You can't expect an entire society to have mirror image homes. You can't expect all students to be cookie cutter students. When you levy so many rules and handcuff the parents from applying their own parenting strategies you do more harm than good.

Parents need to tread carefully either way. With so many rules, it can stifle many children. They keep it in check until it suddenly bursts and the parents are left wondering how it all came about. So that's the tough line we parents need to navigate now precisely bec of the schools overreach. We need to ensure our kids are either doing OK with the overload of rules or we need to bend the rules very carefully. We have lost the ability to parent according to the child's needs because the schools are trying to be parents.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 1:07 pm

amother Oatmeal wrote:

It's a pity that you are not able and don't want to give even one example when you have zero problem in criticizing the schools with their crazy rules and hunger for power and then when you are asked why you don't switch schools you backpedal yourself.
Because so many parents have abdicated their roles are parents the school unfortunately needs to step up.

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 1:14 pm

amother Denim wrote:

Agree but the schools rules need limits and checks in place. They don't get to be parents or subjugate parents parenting. They need to work with the parents instead of overstepping them.

The school needs to follow their boundaries. I.e They shouldn't be legislating where families cannot go on vacation. They can raise awareness of whats happening where and when. They can highlight the dangers of stuff, but they cannot tell parents you can't go to Florida during vacation. Similarly, parents cannot tell schools what they cannot do on their own grounds. If they want to ban grey tights on their grounds, parents have to accept that even if it's nonsensical.

Schools also need to reign in arbitrary rules where some parents cannot abide by them. You cant say no smartphones allowed when some parents job depends on them. Same with internet and same with specifying filters. Schools can demand that children not be exposed to non-filtered internet but they don't have a right to demand the method in how parents implement that. Etc..

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 1:19 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

It is not a pity - that's the advice I was given by a Rav to keep it quiet. Publicizing such details can have others follow suit without the appropriate follow-up. Each parent should make such decisions without outside influence.

Which came first - chicken or the egg. I believe we have the answer in this case. The more the schools inserted themselves into the parental roles, the more parents abdicated theirs. We humans always look for the easier route. So when schools began parenting, it looked to be so much easier for the parents. We ignored the consequences of it and now it's coming home to roost.

If the schools take a step back and give the reins back to the parents, so many will step up. We already see the damage that it's causing, and which parent doesn't want to do right by their children.

↑ GLUE ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 1:48 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I've read your posts and I wonder why you are such an enemy of the schools. Do you really think it's their personal goal in life to harass you a a parent with their rules?
You want a short rule book. I believe the schools also want a short rule book. But we all know life has become much more complicated and *behind every rule there is a reason*.
Because when so many parents fail or don't implement the ruach of BY then they school will have to add another rule.

.....and what happened if the reason is because every other school has that rule?
I am getting very frustrated with one of my daughters school because whenever I ask why do you have such and such rule the answer is always every other school has it.

Behind every rule should be a very good reason why they have it.

↑ Bnei Berak 10

Sun, May 05 2024, 1:49 pm

amother Oatmeal wrote:

If you have a Rav then I get why you keep quiet.

↑ GLUE ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 2:05 pm

Binah had a double take a few months ago
Yitty mom was renting a hotel room with Yitty and a few friends on Mid-Winter. She gets a call the day before Mid-Winter the principal says you can't do it.
Principal says parents called her up to say it's a terrible idea what are we going to do? So the principal calls up Yitty mom to say you can't do it.
I felt that the principal was wrong, instead of banning it she should have told the other mothers to acted like mothers and talk to your kids.

There is another problem that is being talked about many parents can't understand why their married kids are acting the way they are, don't they understand their parents values?
No, if you never spoke about values and every time there is an issue you expected the school to take care of it no wonder your kids don't know what your values are.

amother

Sage

Sun, May 05 2024, 2:10 pm

amother Oatmeal wrote:

Why would society be cookie cutter? There are so many schools
It does make sense for there to be different style schools with different style rules

amother

Aubergine ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 2:43 pm

GLUE wrote:

When parents look at schools like a 2nd set of parents, why shouldn’t the school enforce what normally is a for a parent to do?

amother

↑ Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 2:44 pm

amother Sage wrote:

Why would society be cookie cutter? There are so many schools
It does make sense for there to be different style schools with different style rules

My comment was for a society within a school. If it's a large school, it's impossible to expect cookie cutter students with cookie cutter homes even within a school. Hashem designed us to be individuals and unique. The expectation that large numbers can be put into rigid boxes is flawed - and not appropriately aligned with our Torah.

The Torah promotes chanoch al pi darko. The Torah outlines individual responsibility. The Torah promotes parents to parent, and not offloading it to outside resources. The Torah provides for flexibility and grey areas, depending on the circumstances. There are only a mere few halachos that were assigned rigid lines. We aren't smarter than the Torah.

↑ GLUE

Sun, May 05 2024, 3:19 pm

amother Aubergine wrote:

When parents look at schools like a 2nd set of parents, why shouldn’t the school enforce what normally is a for a parent to do?

And isn't that the problem?
When parents come to the school to complain about such things the school should say that's for you to figure out with your child. Maybe have resources available to help parents talk to there kids.
The more parents outsource there parenting to the school, the more the school will take over.
The school should start from the beginning we are here to educate your child not to be the parent. When parents see that the school is not parenting they will not ask the school to do the hard work.
Many parents don't feel confided to be parents and it's easier to let someone else be the parent.
Schools should have guidelines on what is acceptable out of school not rules. They should not be in loco the parents.

mha3484

Sun, May 05 2024, 3:38 pm

Rules like this would bother me because it shows me the rule maker doesn't understand basic teenage development. Teens are hardwired to want to take themselves places, it’s part of individuating from their parents. To me, this is a very key stage for development. If you live in a walkable city thats fine, but in a suburban town, it doesn't work. I make my kids follow school rules but Id have a hard time respecting the rule maker which makes following it way harder.