Schools Enforcing a Rule in the Rulebook

amother

↑ Daffodil

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:02 am

amother Denim wrote:

Are you an out of town more mixed community parent? The overwhelming majority of Lakewood parents would not send to a school that espoused your attitude. Perhaps out of town, boyfriends and Netflix are the parent’s prerogative but that is not how things works in the yeshivish beis yaakov system and few parents would want it to be that way.

But if all the parents agree so much, why is there even a need for this rule, much less its enforcement? It sounds like a significant number of parents were ignoring this rule before it became enforced.

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:05 am

amother Denim wrote:

This school obviously considers it a standard and clearly stated so when the students applied. It may not meet your definition of a student standard, and it is your prerogative not to sent to the school.

From my discussion with other parents the majority are on board with this standard and it is a small minority of parents who feel they can make their own decision in contravention of the schools standards. A parent needs to make a decision. Either

A) choose a school that confirms with their personal standards

or

B) Make a cost benefit analysis and decide to send and conform to the schools standards even when they conflict with the parents because the overall chinuch package is worth the sacrifice

Choosing

C) a school that conflicts with the parents standards and constantly flouting the schools standards in favor of the parents standards is not a mehalech and will not lead to a successful chinuch experience in any school.

Again - the school setting it as a standard doesn't mean that it is truly a standard. If we give them unilateral permission to set anything as a standard they do just that. They are setting terms for vacations now as a standard. They are setting card sets and toys as standards now too.

The majority is silent. Just because you don't hear the majority complainto, doesn't mean they don't exist. Parents are afraid to speak up because we will take it out on their kids and kick them out of schools. So upfront we pretend we are on board, but internally we are truly not.

And this argument 'choose your school based on standards' is such a tiring and faulty one. We often choose one that aligns with our standards but it is the SCHOOL that changes, not us. What do you want us to do with our children - keep hopping around the schools as they keep on changing? It makes zero sense.

The schools should take a long hard loom at their rulebook. If it is overwhelming and long, there is something very wrong there. A short concise list is what it should consist of and then those can be successfully enforced.

The current setup only hurts the community. The rules are all lumped into the same basket. They're looked as school rules and equally ignored or obliged by force. The kids then throw the baby out with the bathwater.

amother

↑ Denim ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:07 am

amother Gray wrote:

But are you really equating "driving a car" with teen girls watching Netflix, drinking, doing drugs, or having boyfriends? There are standard behaviors for a bas yisroel, and it's fair to expect students to follow them, and then there is a whole new level they are requiring. I never heard of a regulation against driving before (except maybe for chassidish women as a whole but nothing where women are allowed to drive and just their daughters can't until they graduate.)

This 100% intrudes on the home life. A second driver can be so helpful, and it's definitely stepping on family dynamics, not the student alone. I agree with others above who said that if something is negatively affecting a student's performance, you meet with her parents and address it on an individual level, not punish and restrict everyone across the board because some might abuse it.

This is pretty much across the board in Lakewood high schools. I’m surprised you haven’t heard of it. It in the Lakewood mesivtos as well albeit with different timelines. The Lakewood schools have a standard which does not see young teens with sets of wheels all over town as a net plus from a chinuch point of view.

I don’t think they were concerned 30 years ago when kids took the family station wagon to shlep groceries and help out with carpool. Lakewood is very different, and the issues with teens driving are very different on multiple levels.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:07 am

amother Daffodil wrote:

5-10 rule breaker students out of 112 students is not a significant majority.

I think 50% of the parent body agrees and enforces the rule.
30% of the parent body agrees with the rule in theory but can allow themselves to be pressured by their teens against their better judgement.
15% of the parent body doesn't agree with the rule, but chooses to follow because they signed on it/afraid of the consequences.
And 5% doesn't agree and allows their teen to break the rule

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:09 am

amother Denim wrote:

Nope, not OOT. And I'm lost as why you think that kids will do drugs, and have boyfriends if the school wouldn't be setting up rules for the home.

Do you think so little of parents, that they wouldn't have their own home rules for it? And if the kids would be defying their parents, isn't it equally (if not more) likely they would be defying the school as well?

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:11 am

amother OP wrote:

How many break rules without anyone knowing about it? You would have no idea because they do it in a smart way to keep it under the radar. The ones you saw are only the ones who do ot overtly or were unlucky to get caught.

The numbers are much larger than you think.

If you would take a poll and ensure anonymity and no consequences, you might be quite surprised with the results.

amother

↑ Denim ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:12 am

amother Oatmeal wrote:

And this argument 'choose your school based on standards' is such a tiring and faulty one. We often choose one that aligns with our standards but it is the SCHOOL that changes, not us. What do you want us to do with our children - keep hopping around the schools as they keep on changing? It makes zero sense.

I’m not sure where you are coming from. This school, along with the other Lakewood high schools have had this rule for years, and have been vocal about it and had girls sign for many many years. Those who are flouting the rules did not choose a school aligned with their standards. They made a conscious decision to attend and flout the rules that were long in place.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:14 am

amother Oatmeal wrote:

I'm talking about this specific rule.

And we know exactly how many rule breakers there actually were because the girls had to bring their permits.

There were 5-10 rule breakers out of 112 students.

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:15 am

amother Denim wrote:

My argument was high level - not specific to driving.

What should a parent do if a school changes their rules when their kids are strongly entrenched in that school?

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:23 am

amother OP wrote:

I'm talking about this specific rule.

And we know exactly how many rule breakers there actually were because the girls had to bring their permits.

There were 5-10 rule breakers out of 112 students.

Just curious - can't a girl bring in her permit even if she got her license? You don't turn that in when the license gets sent to you.

And can they ensure that kids weren't driving themselves even with permit (despite it being illegal).

amother

↑ Denim ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:29 am

amother Oatmeal wrote:

It is just as much relevant as the comment to choose your schools based on your standards.

You are playing it both ways now, or are trying to shut down valid points because of a lack of an answer.

It’s really simple. Choose a school that conforms with your standards and commit to follow those standards. If the schools changes standards mid course that is not something you committed to and it’s time to consult your local orthodox rabbi about how you will choose to act regarding the new standards. I certainly hear the case for a parent quietly adhering to the old standard in some cases with the guidance of a family Rav who knows them well.

Conforming to the standards that were there and clearly spelled out when you chose the school is a baseline. And as far as I can recall, this school hasn’t changed any major standards in years (perhaps they encourage trimming really long hair a bit more than they used to?). They have the full right to take issue with the 35 or so parents out of hundreds, who have chosen, or caved in to pressure from their high schoolers to flout those standards.

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 8:48 am

amother OP wrote:

Apparently it gets stamped by the DMV when you bring your permit in to get a license.

Here is an example to highlight why such blanket school rules can be quite harmful.

You can have a 17 yo with a permit who takes a trip into NYC with her 19 yo sister who has a license. They then spend their day doing whatever they so wish to.

You can have a 17 yo who did get a license but only drives to do some errands upon her parents requests.

Who is now going to be punished as per the school rule. The first one is in direct defiance of the objective of the rule, but found a loophole. The second one is doing good and is in line with the objective of the rule. Who is the one that should inherently be punished? Doesn't it make much more sense for such rules to be implemented by the parents??

Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 9:07 am

amother Oatmeal wrote:

Student standards are different than legislating home life. Herein lies the exact problem. Setting standards is appropriate for BY. But we no longer know what a standard defines. We have hijacked the definition to try to excuse schools behaviors.

Not allowing children to drive is not a standard. Children can do errands and be helpful in being a 2nd driver. Dressing appropriately and not going to inappropriate places is standards. And schools can set their guidelines for it.

But schools are doing more than that. They're setting up rules for the home in place of the parents. That is inappropriate. If they have a standard that kids shouldn't go to xyz, then that is up to the parents to decide how to enforce it. I as the parent can choose when and where to give my kids the key, or decide not to allow them to drive at all. But that is the PARENTS responsibility, not the school.

I've read your posts and I wonder why you are such an enemy of the schools. Do you really think it's their personal goal in life to harass you a a parent with their rules?
You want a short rule book. I believe the schools also want a short rule book. But we all know life has become much more complicated and *behind every rule there is a reason*.
Because when so many parents fail or don't implement the ruach of BY then they school will have to add another rule.

amother

↑ Oatmeal ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 9:12 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I am not an enemy of the schools. I just think they have gone down the wrong road. Adding more and more and more rules is actually a sign of a failing system. It is a poor attempt to keep it going instead of addressing the core issue.

If so many parents aren't following the rules it implies that something is inherently wrong with those rules. Instead of continuing to try to wrangle control of the parents, they should take a step back to reevaluate those very rules.

It's ego and power that continues to force a road that doesn't work. It takes strength and humility to admit something isn't working and attempt a fix. It is quite well known that throwing more rules/money for something that is not working, won't change much except push the ball down the road.
The one question here is how many more children are they willing to throw under the bus before admitting their mistakes.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Sun, May 05 2024, 9:18 am

amother Oatmeal wrote:

So what is the core issue in your opinion?
And second of all, if you feel that BY school system is throwing kids under the bus then why don't you take them out of BY schools and enroll them in schools which are more in your hashkafah?