Please explain to me what wanting woman to Lein Megilla is

dancingqueen ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 7:13 pm

amother Blueberry wrote:

im rw yeshivish. I never in my life felt inferior to a man.
ive never had interest in doing any manly things.

I literally cant relate to anyone who wants to do 'manly' things. I feel blessed to be a woman. and I feel content with the role I am given. and even more so, I dont feel limited in what I can acheive.

I understand that women feel differently then I do. I understand that there may be a place in yiddishkeit for these women to do what they want in this way (im not so knowledgeable bec I don't care to be)
BUT almost all the women in my life that I know (friends, family, neighbors coworkers etc...) are like me. no one sits around depressed that their lives are 'less than' and they have 'less mitzvos'
I definitely have more intellectual leaning friends/family. and guess what - they learn and give shiurim! and guess what? they go to shul every week! and no - its not a whole dramatic feminist statement. it just IS.

I think the issue with more modern feminism is that it creates a problem that now needs a solution.

What makes leining manly? I think a lot of women like singing?

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 7:18 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

What makes leining manly? I think a lot of women like singing?

Because it's been a traditionally male role since literally the times of Purim.

We Jews tend to place great emphasis on tradition and are rightfully leery of change. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. For example, I can understand making an exception for specific communities where the women feel marginalized unless there is a female reader. Or for a hard of hearing woman to lein.

↑ dancingqueen ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 7:45 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

Ok, Yentl. But the truth is even in Orthodox Judaism, things evolve through the generations and halacha allows for it.

Also, that doesn’t really respond to the poster that I was responding to, who shunned women’s megilla because it’s manly. That doesn’t seem so to me.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 8:07 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Sure things change. No one is denying that.

Traditionally male roles are manly. You can disagree, I guess, but I'm sure you can at least understand why the poster referred to leining as manly.

I don't get the reference to Yentl, so if you were trying to mock me, you'll have to explain it.

↑ dancingqueen ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 9:15 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

Thank you for clarifying.
If that's what you meant, then I would suggest you phrase your opinions more carefully. You also said that there's nothing special about women's roles and you see men learning and wearing tzitzis while you generally see women shopping and getting manicures.
Can you understand why we might find that offensive?

I understood that in some communities it’s much more acceptable for women to be busy with manicures and shopping than involved in spiritual but “masculine” pursuits like textual learning or reading megillah. Which is kinda true it seems?

But if you do find that offensive then you should also find labeling women who want to lein or learn as attention seeking or inappropriate feminists.

↑ dancingqueen ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 9:16 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

Yentl is the main female character in the musical the Fiddler on the Roof. They famously sing a song called “tradition”.

amother

↑ Acacia

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 9:17 pm

Yes, men tend to lein in more of a chant while women tend to sing the leining in a more tuneful manner. Speaking in broad sweeps, of course, as some men wax positively operatic while some women are more mono-tonal. But in general...

Yentl is a reference to Isaac Bashevis Singer's Yiddish story "Yentl der Yeshiva Bocher" which was made into the film Yentl with Barbara Streisand in the title role. It's about a girl whose thirst for learning leads her to disguise herself as a boy to attend yeshiva.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 9:34 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

She had previously said that the men in her surroundings seem more spiritual and the women more shallow.
I can only imagine how the feminists would feel if this statement was said by someone who supported traditional gender roles in Judaism.

Either way, how about both sides agree to try not to get offended and instead focus on the arguments and positions? I only brought up those posts when another poster claimed that this thread was bashing women who want female leiners. I think the bashing was going both ways and in my opinion, her side was doing more of the bashing.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 9:47 pm

Back to the topic at hand, it seems clear that the issue is that one side values tradition and minhag and doesn't see benefit in changing except for when there are extenuating circumstances for specific individuals. It doesn't help that there are many non frum feminists who seek to overturn as many traditions as they can in the name of feminism. It's not surprising that we are leery of the same changes they support.

The other side feels that because it makes women feel more spiritially connected to the mitzvah and the fact that there are practical reasons to want a female reader, this should be one of the minhagim that change with the time. Some are also resentful of anyone who doesn't support this change, feeling like the opposition should mind their own business and allow everyone to do whatever works for them.

amother

White ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 10:19 pm

If it’s allowed according to Halacha for women to lein the Megillah, then what’s the problem?

If it’s not allowed then it’s not allowed.

It’s like wearing Tefiilin. It’s a mitzvah made for a man. A woman might decide she wants to do it, but it’s a man’s mitzvah. What’s the difference why she wants to do it or whether or not she has the time for it.

Imagine a man saying he wants to light candles before Shabbos. Maybe he wants to experience giving birth or nursing a baby. Why can’t a 3 year old girl have an upsherin or a bris ? They just can’t.

amother

↑ Oxfordblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 10:27 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

Sorry for not responding earlier, I've been sorta busy... I was actually very careful how I phrased my opinions, so as to be as clear as possible.

I did indeed say that men have more mitzvos, and therefore, the way I see it, have the potential to be more spiritual, which the men in my life are, bh.

I'm sorry if you find my real life observations offensive, I have no way to change the way you perceived my words, only you can do that.

That's right, I don't see that women are more spiritual than men, AT ALL. Women have so many special mitzvos - yet nobody can actually explain what " so many" actually mean. Women are more chesedik? Maybe some women are, maybe some men are. Who are the people in Hatzalah and Chaveirim - they are men. Who is the person who bought my friends house when it was going into foreclosure and let her family live there rent free - a man. Who paid my neighbor's utilities when they hit on hard times - a man.

The men I know do plenty of other chesed as well. All kinds of chesed. Plus they have all the other mitzvos that just men have.

You can disagree with me without calling me names - just explain logically where I'm wrong. I would love to understand.

amother

↑ Oxfordblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 10:31 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

Learning Torah used to be reserved for men only. Things have changed. A lot of things have changed. Just because something was one way five hundred years ago, doesn't mean that we need to do the same today.

I am old enough to remember when my world was emphatic that women don't work. I quoted Rabbi Nisson Wolpin's words to my husband, he actually didn't believe it. Now the world I live in can't quite get the women out to the workforce fast enough. Things change. Even hashkafa changes.

amother

↑ Oxfordblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 10:41 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

Yes, spirituality looks different for different people.
I don't browse Instagram, but my sister does and she also does a lot of shopping. Trust me, she does more good with her shopping than you laining megilla.
She has an organization that sets up kallah's homes. She helps me shop for my children. She helps so many people who know that if you need clothing or appliance advice, you turn to her.

You seem so proud of yourself for your open-minded views on feminism and women laining. You don't have to bash more typical female pursuits in order to elevate your own.

Honestly, you sound like a man.

It's interesting that upthread I was told - many times - that we can't actually quantify a mitzvah, but here you are very comfortable doing just that. How do you know that Hashem values her instagram more than these women's leinings? Especially as ALL the Rabbanim in our world have absolutely forbidden instagram.

It's interesting that we are clearly told by our Rabbanim what is OK to do and what is not - honestly they're not big fans of internet altogether, and here we both are - and for some reason, THAT we can all ignore. Which Rav or Rosh Yeshiva has forbidden women's leining? And yet somehow you seem to think that it is MUCH worse. Why? I literally don't understand.

I seem so proud of myself that I have open minded views on feminism? Am I not allowed to be myself, even as amother on imamother? As obviously I can't say these views in my real life. I am not open minded, I am being logical. I am asking you - what are women's special mitzvos? When men have more mitvos than women, how do you see that women are on a higher madreiga? Especially as there is absolutely no source for this, and many sources to the contrary?

I sound like a man? LOL, I guess for you that is an insult, as women are inherently superior? Ok, I'll bite - in what way do I sound like a man? I'm curious.

amother

↑ Oxfordblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 10:49 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

I did not say which community I'm from. I'm pretty sure manicures and shopping are in every community that has females in it Smile

.

I just think it's weird that it's ok to do those things (to clarify, it's ok to do those things in ANY community) and nobody gets offended when and if women focus on doing these kind of things, but somehow something a bit more meaningful seems offensive.

I wasn't knocking any specific community, I hope that's clear.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 12:08 am

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

I wasn't trying to insult you, especially since you made it clear that you personally don't think women are special and that most men you know seem more spiritual than women. I was saying that your point of view sounded like the point of view of some men I've encountered who think that anything that has been traditionally male is inherently more meaningful and holy while anything that is traditionally female is trivial and shallow.

I've never posited that mitzvos can never be quantified. It is my opinion that my sister who does so much good with her so-called trivial shopping gets more schar than most men -or women- who lein megilla. Therefore, I resented the fact that you unfavorably compared women to men by saying that men are busy learning and putting on tzitzis while women are busy shopping. You did explain it, so I am no longer peeved.