Please explain to me what wanting woman to Lein Megilla is

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 1:19 pm

amother Narcissus wrote:

Six pages and over one hundred comments later and I can confidently call this a bash fest.

Agree.
But as usual, the side that claims to support women's rights is doing must of the bashing.

Saying that women who don't feel inferior only think that way because they were conditioned to.

Claiming that if you as a woman don't feel inferior, that benefits men.

Sarcastically referring to traditional women as content to make tablescapes and tricolor kugels.

Saying women don't have a special role. They don't have a special anything. Only men do.

Claiming that the only reason why the community discourages women from doing more religiously is because men want to be able to do whatever they want.

Saying that men go to minyan, learn, wear tzitzis, while women go to the gym, nail salon, and shop.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 1:26 pm

amother Narcissus wrote:

That’s the thing, none of these women are sitting around depressed. They are happily going about their own lives, serving HaShem in the best way they can. OP decided to open up this thread to bash them.

I think I'm going to bow out as I'm upseting too many people which is not my intention.
I have never come across people being bothered about the division of mitzvos, with people feeling more than/less than if they can't perform certain mitzvos.

I have always felt that we don't need to worry about feeling 'equal', as I believe that the Torah holds woman in high regard, regardless of the different mitzvos for men and women. My op was simply out of curiosity, nothing more, I didn't realise there are such strong feelings surrounding this and I'd be opening a can of worms.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 2:12 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

You're so right. Some of the those comments are downright insulting to us woman who don't want to lein megillah.
Basically saying that if we don't yearn to do xyz we're a bunch of shallow people! But no, WE are being accused of bashing.

↑ Golde

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 2:18 pm

amother OP wrote:

Then I hope you also noticed the answers from those of us who answered why we do it and didn't mention inferiority or inequality as one of our reasons.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 2:45 pm

Golde wrote:

Then I hope you also noticed the answers from those of us who answered why we do it and didn't mention inferiority or inequality as one of our reasons.

You specifically come across as someone who follows daas Torah and doesn't need to disparage tradition and traditional women. If all feminists were like you, I'd probably be a feminist too.

amother

Forsythia

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 3:21 pm

amother Blueberry wrote:

ok then I can respect that even I don't relate to or understand it.
I was addressing other posters who seem to be very bothered and down about perceived inequality and oppression.

just another point. Rebbetzin batshva kanievsky has a great story where a woman who was starting to put on a burka came to her - the family was desperate to try and stop this woman from joining that group.
she explained to the rebbetzin that she was just trying to be like sara imeinu! nothing WRONG with wearing a burka.. in fact you could say she is more tznius and connected to Hashem!!
the rebbetzin gently told her - first lets try to be like sara shenirer and then we can try to be like sara imeinu.

and her point was simple but brilliant. no one is saying you cant wear a burka. no one is saying you shouldnt lein megillah. in fact - no one is even saying (halachikly) a woman cant wear tefillin (rashis daughters were known to have worn)!
but the idea is to keep your priorities in place and first try to fulfill your basic obligations and then work on getting to the next level.

I guess I dont relate to the megillah leiners because I am still trying to work on the basic mitzvos that were gifted to me (and by me I dont even mean to women only.)
my tznius, my shabbos, my taharas mishpacha, my basic davening (if im lucky to have a spare minute in my day etc)

I'm not weighing in on Megillah specifically, but sometimes an "optional" mitzvah is what gives a person enough enthusiasm in their Yiddishkeit that they are able to then improve on all of the obligatory mitzvos.

For example, I daven an abbreviated version. On Shabbos I usually have more time. I could choose to add Pesukei Dezimra which perhaps might be halachically preferable, but if I add certain songs that I connect to in davening, I enjoy davening much more and am less likely to procrastinate on it the following week. So even though the paragraphs that I say might be less important, they are what make me WANT to daven which overall puts me in a better place spiritually.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 3:54 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Excuse me? So only your way is correct? So no other way of living a frum life is correct? Then the other poster who said this was a bashing thread was correct......

Come on.
She was responding to someone who told her that the only reason she doesn't feel inferior is because she was conditioned by men and for men not to feel inferior.

That's not her saying that that other ways of living are not correct.

If you only have a problem with her response and don't have a problem with the person who told her that she is conditioned, then that says a lot about you and what you choose to focus on.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 3:59 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Not all feminists disparage tradition and women who want that traditional role. Not even close.

I hope so. I just wish feminists would speak up when people who claim to be defending your side disparage traditional roles by saying things like women don't have a special role and if you personally don't feel inferior, only men benefit.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 4:05 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

Nope, she answered whats wrong with being CONDITIONED to the correct way. To me thats still sayging that she feels that her way is THE correct way.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 4:06 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

True true feminists really believe that any woman has the right to choose what is correct for her, no matter what that is.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 4:31 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Nope, she answered whats wrong with being CONDITIONED to the correct way. To me thats still sayging that she feels that her way is THE correct way.

Yes. She believes that it's correct to not feel inferior.
Other people believe that if you don't feel inferior, it's only because men conditioned you to think that way.

Both sides obviously think their way of thinking is correct, but the only opinion you find offensive is hers.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 4:58 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

No, Im finding the word CONDITIONED to be whats wrong with what she said. Not the actual opinion.

amother

↑ Oxfordblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 5:25 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

I would like to respond to many comments, but I would like to just say this before this thread gets locked-

I was the one who brought up tablescapes and tri color kugels (or somebody else brought it up and I continued...).

I did not mean in any way shape or form to disparage either of them. I'm sure the tablescapes are beautiful and the tri color kugels are yummy. It's just that I personally, don't see either of those things as particularly spiritual.

I wasn't trying to attack anybody, I was stating my opinion, just as you were stating yours. I am just trying to have a discussion about this... its something I think about a lot.

If you can change my mind... kol hakovod, you're more than welcome to.

And I don't lein nor do I plan to lein. I just think it's cool that women can do this and it works for them. I'm a big fan of doing what works for you!!!

amother

Poinsettia

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 6:35 pm

The issue of women reading the Megillah for other women seems to be unresolved. Those who permit such reading outside a synagogue context have a substantial halachic basis for such a ruling, and those who do not permit such a reading also have a substantial halachic basis for such a ruling. ( from https://www.google.com/amp/s/w.....t=amp).
I have a female relative, who hasn't been yet blessed with children, who was learning this year to read the megillah. I was going to protest to her that it's not right for women to read ( because it seems like they are trying to copy men ) then I remembered that this year especially there was a great effort to achieve Jewish unity so I did not speak against what she was doing.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 6:39 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

No, Im finding the word CONDITIONED to be whats wrong with what she said. Not the actual opinion.

She wasn't the one who first used the word conditioned. She only used conditioned in response to the person who claimed that if you don't personally feel inferior, you must have been conditioned that way by men and for men.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 6:43 pm

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

Thank you for clarifying.
If that's what you meant, then I would suggest you phrase your opinions more carefully. You also said that there's nothing special about women's roles and you see men learning and wearing tzitzis while you generally see women shopping and getting manicures.
Can you understand why we might find that offensive?