DL/Torani retention rates

amother

Poinsettia

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 1:26 pm

I'm not Israeli but know quite a few and I cannot imagine that it is 50% either. if you want to tell me it's higher than for chareidi -- that I'd believe sure. But either they are defining OTD extremely broadly or DL extremely broadly (not everyone in a DL/mamad school is from a dati home) to come up with that.

I do know DL who have gone very left when they went off; it's not so pashut that they stay the same in terms of values.

Near gvaaot and such is a complicated phenomenon. There are kids who go this route as a way to separate from and rebel against their parents. Everyone? Definitely not. But it's an outlet for them.

amother

↑ Pewter ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 1:34 pm

amother Poinsettia wrote:

Many of them just take the hashkafa they grew up with in home, and as black and white teens connect to the most extreme, militant version of it.

Teens tend to be black and white and extreme. If there wheren't so many issues with criminal behavior, the police unfairly persecuting them, and being blacklisted/destroying future opportunities, it could even be a healthy thing for teenagers to be involved with.

I still think its healthier then the OTD scene which often has drugs and sleep around as the main activity....

amother

Coffee ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 1:35 pm

I don't think the OTD rates are anything like those statistics.
Even in chareidi circles you have very few who leave completely so unless you're counting people who are a bit different than their parents.
I'm from a very chareidi community, most people in my school were chassidish, we had a number of girls who were at risk in high school but almost all are frum today, there are maybe 2/65 who not shomer Torah umitzvos.
I think that number might be slightly higher in the years below me but it's not 20%.

shabbatiscoming ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 8:42 pm

zebra111 wrote:

I heard a lecture recently which showed a survey I forgot the name of...otd from chareidi fams was under 20pc (cant remember actual figures), in dl fams it was just over 50pc

50 percent? As in half the population? That seems insanely high and insanely made up.
Yes, we know youth who have gone off, but 50? Not even close.

amother

Almond ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 9:35 pm

"I know a family with..." is meaningless. To balance your DL family with 3 or 4 kids otd, I'll cite a charedi family I know with 3 or 4 kids otd.

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing more than that something exists somewhere (if it proves even that) and says nothing about prevalence or anything else. I happen to know a frum family comprised entirely of redheads. What does that say about frum people and redheads? Absolutely nothing.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 1:37 am

I am not super familar with Haredim. If you want to compare DL to Haredi, I would guess that more DL go OTD, but also that of those who go OTD, many many more of the DL eventually do tshuva.

An OTD DL person who does tshuva is welcomed back with no scarlet letter. But even to say "welcomed back" isn't accurate, because they were never really gone to start out with, they were still in their parents' home and probably in shul a few times a year for the high holidays.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 3:07 am

amother Cognac wrote:

What a weird assumption. Why would you think that?

amother

↑ Pewter ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 3:19 am

amother Cognac wrote:

I think this may be correct in a specific segment of the DL ( I am not familiar) but not across all communities

What people don't seem to realize is just like there are huge differences within the charedi community, and OTD rates will vary in different groups - the same is true in the Dati Leumi world.

You can't compare Kiryat Gat to Itamar or Givaat Shmuel to Efrat. Raanna is really different then Modiin and Yad Binyamin is a whole different world from Eli or Bet El....
Har Hamor isn't KBY which is different then the mechina in Eli , and the crowd who go straight to the army post HS is different then the crowd who do hesder.
The demographic that live on the periphery (down south and up north) are really different then the ones who live in the mercaz, and they are both differnt then the demographics in the shtachim....

I doubt there is any real stastical evidence on either the charedi or dl communities on OTD rates.

↑ tryinghard ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 9:41 am

amother Pewter wrote:

For sure, I'm just trying to get a somewhat accurate picture. And I did specify Torani as opposed to plain DL. I understand that Torani itself has a huge range, but so does Chareidi.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 10:30 am

tryinghard wrote:

For sure, I'm just trying to get a somewhat accurate picture. And I did specify Torani as opposed to plain DL. I understand that Torani itself has a huge range, but so does Chareidi.

Sorry, I missed that you said "torani". I don't have as much experience wirh them. My 1/7 estimate is from the group I know best which is more middle-of-the-road DL.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 10:35 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

What a weird assumption. Why would you think that?

Because I know a largeish amount of DL who went OTD in their late teens or early 20s, while planning to do tshuva in a few years and eventually raise DL families. It wasn't so much a rejection of the religion as a desire to taste the forbidden before they got too tied down (married, kids). From what I understand about Haredim, that would not be done because the social ramifications of going OTD are so much harsher.

amother

Dodgerblue ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 10:35 am

amother Pewter wrote:

So my aunt who covers her hair, wears skirts and did sherut leumi and was shomer negia - her daughters all went to the army, wear pants, are not shomer negia and will not cover there hair.
The difference with the charedi OTD is they are not dysfunctional people and they are still frum - but they still completely rejected the lifestyle they grew up with.

I do think that when Dati Leumi people go even totally OTD they don't tend to be as dysfunctional and out of control as charedi kids - the secular world is one they are much more comfortable and familiar with. They also usually hold on to the right wing, Zionistic, values of there parents and that stays as a point of commonality - they still do kravi and sign on keva ect. - charedi kids who become secular often no longer have anything in common with there families when it comes to values.

Some blanket statements here.

How can they be considered frum and secular at the same time?

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 10:54 am

tryinghard wrote:

I made the opposite assumption in my OP and explained my rationale. But it was a hypothesis that this thread was written to explore.

It wasn't you. It was someone else. Having the convo is fine, I'm just saying that these assumptions shouldn't be made either way. I don't like when posters only defend their affiliation when these generalized assumptions are said.

amother

↑ Pewter ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 10:58 am

tryinghard wrote:

For sure, I'm just trying to get a somewhat accurate picture. And I did specify Torani as opposed to plain DL. I understand that Torani itself has a huge range, but so does Chareidi.

Torani seems to me to have a very similar retention rate as charedi - plus a significant percentage going to the noar gvaot/lehava direction. I don't really now all communities well - but the ones that I am involved with seem this way.

amother

↑ Pewter ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:14 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

Some blanket statements here.

How can they be considered frum and secular at the same time?

Look this is all anecdotal from looking at my friends and there kids, my professional work wit at - risk teens, and a very large very varied family. Obviously it is sweeping statements

The charedi kids who go OTD often (not always) end up droping out of school, and living the party lifestyle. Sure some choose to go OTD and then go to school, get a career, and have stable relationships - but the vast majority of the kids I work with first do the wild party thing for a few years

What I see as a bigger issue in the middle of the road DL is less of the OTD go party and become a dysfunctional person (although it exists) that I see in the charedi world. I see a lot of kids who grew up in middle of the road homes becoming much more left wing and DL "lite" or mesorati, but living a generally secular lifestyle.

So they may still keep the 3 biggies (TH, kosher, and shabbos) and therefore are still frum in my book, but the are not dressing tznuis at all (no problem with shorts and a tank top) may send to mamaad but its not the kind of schools they went to more Amit style then the ulpanot or yeshivot tichoniot, if the guys go to shul it's only on shabbos, the tv is on a time. Politically they lean much more center/left then the parents. They also tend to be very successful people - get married, have families, good careers, meaningful army service.

My point is that they go in a very different direction then the one the grew up in, are still "frum" but are much more secular then they grew up. I don't think this is a huge percentage - but it is bigger then the percentage of totally wild OTD kids I know. We work with them to - but the datlashim seem to know how to transition from party animal to functional, successful secular person (and often go back to religion) then the charedi OTD kids

amother

↑ Pewter ↓

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:18 am

amother Cognac wrote:

This

When we work with kids on the street the DL kids tend to know they are having fun for a few years and will go back. So they avoid the heavier drugs and are more careful in general. The charedi kids who do want to come back have a much harder time then the dati kids, especially the girls. Even when the come back to religion, very few go back to being charedi...