DL/Torani retention rates

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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tryinghard ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 6:30 am

Everyone knows that in the chareidi world there is a growing retention problem - kids going off the derech or at least going through significant "at-risk" stages. I am curious if this is a big problem in the DL world, and particularly amongst the Torani community. I have heard that it is, but I am admittedly pretty ignorant about this (and many other topics). I understand that DL/Torani allows more of a range of acceptable behavior and/or dress, as compared with the strict chareidi rules that essentially mean a kid may be "at-risk" if they stretch a little, push boundaries. So I wonder if the latitude allowed in the Torani world results in better retention rates (for lack of better term). Any thoughts?

amother

Slateblue ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 6:31 am

I have family in this community and they are concerned about the laxity that has become the norm. I'm sure this varies a lot across the country...

amother

Pewter ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 6:59 am

There are retention problems but they show up differently in different segments of the Dati world.

There are different chinuch issues and challenges that the Torani community has (ime with family and friends) is kids who drop out of the system and join RW fringe groups like Lehava or become Noar Gvaaot. So no they aren't OTD in the pure sense - they are shomer torah umitzvos - but they are engaging in risky behavior, are out of schools, and getting in trouble with the police, can't go to the army because of criminal records...

There is also plenty of classical OTD (thats where the term datlash originated) who become totally secular (actually a lot of the kids at the Nova festival where Datlashim). In the more mainstream Dati Leumi world there is some OTD and even more veering to a very a much more LW lifestyle.

So my aunt who covers her hair, wears skirts and did sherut leumi and was shomer negia - her daughters all went to the army, wear pants, are not shomer negia and will not cover there hair.
The difference with the charedi OTD is they are not dysfunctional people and they are still frum - but they still completely rejected the lifestyle they grew up with.

I do think that when Dati Leumi people go even totally OTD they don't tend to be as dysfunctional and out of control as charedi kids - the secular world is one they are much more comfortable and familiar with. They also usually hold on to the right wing, Zionistic, values of there parents and that stays as a point of commonality - they still do kravi and sign on keva ect. - charedi kids who become secular often no longer have anything in common with there families when it comes to values.

↑ tryinghard ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 8:09 am

What are Lehava and Noar Gvaot?

amother

Cognac ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 8:48 am

tryinghard wrote:

What are Lehava and Noar Gvaot?

I wouldn't mind if my kids joined Lehava or Noar Gvaot. Noar Gvaot is Hilltop Youth. They get a bad rap. I believe those with criminal records are the minority.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 8:51 am

I would approximate 1 in 7 are OTD (14%), but that's at any given time. If it's people who at ANY point go OTD , it would be higher.

Unfortunately, there is a concerning trend of youth 15 - 24 ish who go OTD "to have fun" while fully intending to to tshuva in their mid to late 20s. Totally assur and the ones who do it age 20+ risk kareit.

↑ tryinghard ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 8:56 am

amother Cognac wrote:

And how would that percentage compare with chareidi?
I imagine there's fewer of the latter group in the chareidi world because they know reintegration aint simple as far as shidduchim go.

zebra111

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 9:00 am

I heard a lecture recently which showed a survey I forgot the name of...otd from chareidi fams was under 20pc (cant remember actual figures), in dl fams it was just over 50pc

nicole81 ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:07 am

zebra111 wrote:

I heard a lecture recently which showed a survey I forgot the name of...otd from chareidi fams was under 20pc (cant remember actual figures), in dl fams it was just over 50pc

That sounds made up.l, like a scare tactic. Or at the very least not a reliable and valid survey.

amother

↑ Slateblue ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:10 am

nicole81 wrote:

That sounds made up.l, like a scare tactic. Or at the very least not a reliable and valid survey.

What makes you say so?

↑ nicole81 ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:19 am

amother Slateblue wrote:

What makes you say so?

I'm quite enmeshed in the MO community and nowhere near those numbers are happening. I can't imagine DL being that much different.

amother

↑ Slateblue

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:32 am

nicole81 wrote:

I'm quite enmeshed in the MO community and nowhere near those numbers are happening. I can't imagine DL being that much different.

I definitely don't know the numbers, but the DL community is in many ways a totally different animal from the American MO community. I also would not compare American yeshivish and Israeli chareidi.

↑ tryinghard ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:50 am

20% and 50% both sound absolutely outrageous, tbh. That literally means 1 out of every 5 kids goes OTD. Don't believe it.

amother

Mintgreen ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:00 am

nicole81 wrote:

I'm quite enmeshed in the MO community and nowhere near those numbers are happening. I can't imagine DL being that much different.

DL and MO are very different. Israeli lifestyle is different than chul lifestyle and dl teens are exposed to entirely different things than American or other diaspora community teens. It’s not a question of better or worse, stronger or weaker, more educated or less, it’s a completely different culture. Also in chul going otd usually means finding a place among non-Jews. In Israel otd or at risk youth find themselves a place among other Jews who aren’t observant. That’s another big difference. Again not better and worse just different.

Success10

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:05 am

tryinghard wrote:

20% and 50% both sound absolutely outrageous, tbh. That literally means 1 out of every 5 kids goes OTD. Don't believe it.

It could be a really dramatic definition of OTD, like even slightly less observant than parents qualifies.

↑ nicole81

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:18 am

amother Mintgreen wrote:

Ok, I didn't think of it that way. Thanks for the perspective. But it still sounds outrageous. I'd like to hear from people in these communities. The DL people I know are way closer to 10-20%. I don't know about chareidim.

essie14 ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 12:36 pm

I'm DL. 50% of DL kids go off the derech???
No way.
My DD graduated with 50 girls. Maybe 2 are not frum.
Each of my DS probably also have 2 or 3 kids from their HS class who aren't frum anymore.
All my kids went to mainstream DL schools in Israel.

Among my friends here in Israel, maybe 5 out of the 50+ kids we all have.

Reality ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 12:43 pm

essie14 wrote:

I agree. I have a job where I meet hundreds of families (mostly DL and Chareidi) from Beit Shemesh, Yerushalayim, the Gush, Beitar and other surrounding cities. No way do the DL families average 50% OTD. No way. The most I've seen is two kids from the same family. But since many DL families in Israel have 6 kids, I wouldn't put the number higher than 20% and I think that is high. You do see families with different levels of observance but that's not OTD, that's each child finding their path.

amother

↑ Pewter ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 1:10 pm

Reality wrote:

I have a feeling that the 50% is using the term OTD very very broadly - as in off the parents derech vs. datlashim. So if it is talking about people who grew up middle of the road DL or Torani/Chardal and became more Dati Lite. Politically - Ben Gvir/Smotritch to Bennet/Likud, grew up in the shtachim and now live in Givaat Shmuel or Raanana.

Otherwise that statistic is off. Unless it was done right after the Hitantkut - there was a real intense wave off OTD then - probably because there was such a strong sense of betrayal and way to much mashaich is coming and it won't happen going on in the school/chinuch system.

amother

↑ Pewter ↓

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 1:15 pm

amother Cognac wrote:

I wouldn't mind if my kids joined Lehava or Noar Gvaot. Noar Gvaot is Hilltop Youth. They get a bad rap. I believe those with criminal records are the minority.

Obviously this isn't as bad as going OTD.

But I work with the demographic - and the bad rap is for a good reason
But most of these kids drop out of school, get married really young, can't go great units in the army because they get blacklisted so that is out as a career.

And that is the best case scenario - a lot of them do end up with criminal records - especially Lehava who get into a lot of fights with arab guys. Part of the reason for that is because the police and the state really persecute the and it really messes things up for them down the line.

It is true that many of them grow up and straighten out - but many of them don't and it isn't pretty.

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