Should teenagers be charging friends?

amother

↑ Blueberry ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 8:59 am

Reality wrote:

I think either one of two things happened here:

1. The driver has started to feel taken advantage of. Are the boys making him be their chauffeur, dropping them off at different places, making him wait for them, making jokes about him being "their" driver etc. He may feel like if he's being treated like an Uber driver he may as well get paid!

2. He needs the money. Either because he is saving up for something important to him or his parents have stopped paying for somethings they used to pay for. And he thinks this is an instant business for himself.

Quite frankly, if the boys and their moms are this upset about it, it is quite obvious you have all been using him and are just upset the gravy train has ended. Now that your cheap and convenient ride has ended, you'll have to either pay market price or gulp, actually carpool and take the time to drive your own kids.

This, exactly this.

amother

Eggshell ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 10:24 am

cbsp wrote:

There's a concept of zeh neheneh v'zeh lol chaseir.

Sounds like a shaylah to me. Why not ask the Rosh Yeshiva?

"Vzeh lo chaseir"

Of course he does. He's not on his own schedule. He's making multiple drop offs. Can't listen to what he wants in the car, or drive in silence or blasting music or whatever. Giving someone a ride to the same place you're going sounds easy on paper, but often has a bunch of little delays and minor inconveniences that're hard to list.

(I just drove my cousins to a family simcha in a diff state last night. In theory, very minor inconvenience. In reality: had to drive to their house in the 4:30 bus-filled trafficy streets, call and wait for them to come out, even though they knew we were on our way, one girl had to run back in for her dancing shoes, had to drive back to my neighborhood to get on the highway way, couldn't shmooze with dh in the car even tho we badly badly needed some one on one time, had to make chit chat and be "on" the whole drive. On the way back, we were supposed to leave at 10:15 sharp. But one had forgotten to bench. And the other was saying her goodbyes to the baalai simcha, and the other was nowhere to be found...and so on. We pulled out at 10:55. No one was rude or crossed the line to careless or inconsiderate, but there are definitely inconveniences.)

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 10:49 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes, he would be driving himself if the boys didn't come along.

I think it comes down to how much of an inconvenience it is for the driver to have extra passengers. A few things to consider, based on my experience with my son in Bais Medrash giving other bochurim rides:

1. Are they all ready to leave at exactly the same time or are any of the boys running late at the determined leaving time and the driver has to wait?

2. How much luggage are they taking with them? Does it take 5-10 minutes for everyone to squeeze their stuff into the car? That's 5-10 minutes later than the driver would have left if he didn't have passengers.

3. Does the driver feel comfortable playing whatever music/shiur he wants in the car or do the passengers give their opinions and they all need to agree? Do all of the guys get along well or is their annoying joking/bickering, or awkward silences, that make the ride less pleasant?

4. Do they make rest steps? If the driver was by himself, would he be able to stop, or not stop, as he wished, but now needs to factor in the needs of the other guys into his trip?

5. When going home, is he taking the boys all back to his house (meaning a single stop) and their parents are picking them up from there or does he drop them off at their houses? When going back to yeshiva, do they all come to his house at the right time to leave or does he need to pick anyone up, which adds more time to the trip?

6. Do the passengers clean up after themselves and make sure they do not leave any garbage in the car and that it is in the same condition when they leave as it was at the beginning of the drive? Boys are often clueless about this and then the driver is left to clean up himself.

If there is ANY inconvenience at all to their driver, he has a right to charge more than just gas/tolls. It's great to do chessed, but not in a situation where people are (even unknowingly) taking advantage as that breeds resentment. Chessed should not be expected on a regular basis in this type of situation.

amother

Burntblack ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 10:55 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

To add to this

Are there times where he considers not going home or returning to yeshiva late but feels compelled to because others are counting on him.
Do the boys ever express, even as a joke that sentiment. "You stranded us last week when you stayed home because you were sick with the flu. What were we supposed to do".

Does he dictate the time? (Leaving at 6, anyone here can catch a ride) or do they all negotiate.

Is everyone really paying gas and tolls. Are the numbers accurate reflecting the current gas and tolls prices.

Was he offered a job driving people that he turned down because he's doing this Chessed.

Do other boys offer to take a driving shift.

amother

↑ Blueberry

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 11:30 am

amother Burntblack wrote:

Also, who's idea was it for him to drive them? Was it a "unanimous" vote, or a decided thing, like hey, so and so goes to and from yeshivah, he can take our boys too?

Or, did he offer up his services?

Did his parents offer on his behalf, and so he couldn't say no?

SO many things to answer to get the whole picture and OP hasn't given much detail other then he goes to and from anyway, and they pay gas and tolls.

I'm aware OP doesn't have to answer, but it's hard to give a full opinion without these answers.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 12:02 pm

amother OP wrote:

Ok, so let's change the example. Every Thursday night Dh drives up to the bungalow colony. He takes several friends with him who are in the same colony. He's friends with these guys. There will be around 10 of these trips during the summer.

I'd say it's pretty tacky if dh charges these friends let's say half an uber price and tries to make a buck off them. It's not my world. But I respect that people view the world differently.

I guess you don’t drive? Because I do and believe me it’s a much bigger deal than you’re making it sound. Your dh is choosing to do this for his friends. If they expected it of him and got angry that he didn’t want to take anymore, I bet he’d feel differently.

↑ cbsp ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 12:44 pm

amother Eggshell wrote:

To clarify, I said it's a shaylah. You actually paskened based on your own experiences.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 1:23 pm

cbsp wrote:

There's a concept of zeh neheneh v'zeh lo chaseir.

Sounds like a shaylah to me. Why not ask the Rosh Yeshiva?

Because it's not a halacha question. I'm sure he's allowed to charge. I just feel it's tacky. I told my son that I'm very happy he's friends with this boy but I think that his friend is making a mistake by charging friends for something he's doing anyway. Of course everyone should share the expense of the ride. I told my son that in our world we don't profit off friends.

One point I want to add. The driver comes from a very (very very) broken home. That being said he's a savvy kid and is very business oriented. He's been vacuuming cars for pesach for a number of years and is now trying to start a small power washing business. He's only 18. This boy has serious family issues but I don't think money is a problem as I can see how he spends. That being said I think perhaps because of his background he unfortunately fends for himself and had to become a man early on if that makes sense.

Maybe I was too sensitive to it because it was right in my face. My son walked in the house with this boy and said "mom, I owe "chaim" X dollars because he drove us home. My son didn't have the cash and I handed the boy the money. This boy has probably eaten on shabbos at my house 50 times in the last few years. Felt weird handing him cash like that. But now that I'm a little calmer I think I have to give this boy a complete pass because of his circumstances. I still think that as a general rule it is a terrible idea to charge friends for things like this.

↑ DVOM

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 1:38 pm

amother OP wrote:

Clearly this kids world is worlds away from your world.

I'm glad this young man is savvy enough to make his own way. You call it 'profiting off friends'. I think of it as knowing your worth and the worth of your work.

I'm sorry your son had to hear your negative judgement. You were willing to feed this friend at your table 50 times, but had a hard time paying him an honest wage for a job done. Honestly, it's hard for me to understand it. I'd think you'd be jumping at the chance to pay him for a service, with all the respect and self- worth that brings, rather than have him eat as a charity case at your table.

amother

↑ Eggshell

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 1:40 pm

cbsp wrote:

To clarify, I said it's a shaylah. You actually paskened based on your own experiences.

I didn't pasken, I just questioned your claim of one side not losing out. It's impossible that he doesn't lose out. Personally, if it were my son doing the driving, I'd want him to ask his Rebbe/rosh yeshiva if it's the right thing to do. I would also assume there's so precedent in place. What did boys do other years? And finally, what did op have in mind when she sent her son to an oot yeshivah...was she planning on picking him up every week? Was she told this is an option and she counted on it?

amother

↑ Rose ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 1:41 pm

amother OP wrote:

You literally explained yourself why he is charging. He comes from a broken home. He probably spends a lot to make himself feel good. He supports himself. He is business oriented and this is a perfect opportunity for him. He is well within his right. And it doesn't make him a bad person by any means.

amother

↑ Firethorn ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 1:58 pm

DVOM wrote:

And this is where you and I differ. B”H I don’t understand the difficult childhood and what his psychological needs to support himself are. While I know it is the ikar of his mentality, as a bystander, to me, one does favors for a friend and helps / shows chessed and kindness to someone who had helped you with your needs. Charging money here doesn’t nullify his lack of a family with a table to eat with, it distances him and makes interactions transactional with someone who was provided him with support. If, he was poor, and the kids or moms were offering to pay him, this way he could earn money with dignity and pride, to buy himself clothing/pay for his needs, that would be a different thing, but honestly, I think for him to ask for money in this way, it’s sort of chutzpah and a big turn off. It appears as he has no hakarat hatov for all the times OP & family has been there for him. TBH, I would be much less inclined to invite him again. I know that I B”H don’t understand him, and would push myself to continue to invite, but I would no longer be doing it b’simcha. I absolutely understand how OP seems to feel.

(But this is also why I am not a business woman. I would never be able to charge for services. I am happy to do everyone a favor and expect that you will do me favors in return. Maybe it is because I had a childhood where people helped each other and I didn’t want for things.)

↑ cbsp

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 2:04 pm

amother Eggshell wrote:

I didn't say it's definitely lo chaseir. I said it's a shaylah if it's lo chaseir.

And with OP clarifying the situation I feel even more strongly that the young man get halachic guidance for his (hopefully very successful) entrepreneurial ventures. Better to get used to asking shaylos for the "easy" stuff so it becomes routine when the stakes get higher and more complex.

The Rov can guide as whether he can charge (I'm assuming yes, but this is good practice), how much, what else to take into account, where chesed comes in, etc.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 2:24 pm

amother Rose wrote:

I would never say he's a bad person. Not because I'm holding back, but because he simply isn't a bad person. He's a fine young man. I do think he has to be careful about charging his friends for things like this. I don't want my son or his friends charging him back when they do favors for him or each other. That's not what being good friends is about.

But maybe I'm wrong. I'm surprised to see so many people say otherwise. My daughter went to the supermarket this morning and picked up something for a neighbor. Should she charge her a few dollars? The neighbor benefitted from it. It was slightly inconvenient. The neighbor could have hired someone to do it. Can my daughter charge? I suppose she can. But that's not what a good neighbor does.

It seems many here would say se should have bargained a few dollars for the service.